Symptoms of cam failure

striker

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Location
Canada
TDI
None
Hey guys,

I'm looking at an extremely well maintained 06 that recently came on my lot I work at. The car has every dealer service stamp since day one showing the oil changes, DSG trans fluid flush, etc.

Is there ANYTHING at all that I can listen for when this thing is idling? I dont know much about diesels so I have no clue what's suppose to sound normal and whats out of whack.

Any advice? The car has 82K miles.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Look carefully at the toe of the cam lobes (the 8 that work the valves, not the 4 fat ones that work the injector rockers). You may need to spray off the cam with some brake cleaner to get a good look. And rotate the engine around by hand from the crank sprocket clockwise to see them all. You will need a flashlight most likely.

Examine the lobes for wear on the tips, and a lack of chamfer. It will be pretty obvious when you see it. It may not be on all the lobes either. I have one cam here that looks perfect on 6 lobes, and 2 have wear.

Be sure to pour some oil over the cam and lifters before putting it back together if you sprayed it off.
 

striker

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Location
Canada
TDI
None
Alright, will do. My old man is buying an 06 and this kinda scares me even tho I have receipts from the dealer showing every oil change.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
Every oil change done properly still doesn't mean it is okay. They still fail sometimes even if all maintenance was done properly. You should read through some of the cam threads here to find instructions/pictures.
 

striker

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Location
Canada
TDI
None
Yeah I understand. It is pretty bad to think that they allowed this to pass. I know for a fact that the car was serviced at VW since day one. Every filter, fluid change, even the DSG.
 

Jnitrofish

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Location
Texas
TDI
2005.5, 2005.5, and 2006. 5m, 5m, and DSG.
If heat is the issue, why not go with a lower temp thermostat?
Or a thicker oil? 15w-40 perhaps.

Everyone always says a TDI is very good at keeping itself cool, the cooling system is over engineered, but then we come up with concepts that its heat killing the cams down south.
 

narongc73

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
VA/OH
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Or a thicker oil? 15w-40 perhaps.

Everyone always says a TDI is very good at keeping itself cool, the cooling system is over engineered, but then we come up with concepts that its heat killing the cams down south.
Who makes a 15w40 for our cars? I've only seen 5w40. I don't think it will hurt much to go with 180 thermostat. I've installed a Kenne Bell supercharger for an 01 mustang before and I think they supplied a 180 thermostat. Ran fine.
 

Jnitrofish

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Location
Texas
TDI
2005.5, 2005.5, and 2006. 5m, 5m, and DSG.
Who makes a 15w40 for our cars? I've only seen 5w40. I don't think it will hurt much to go with 180 thermostat. I've installed a Kenne Bell supercharger for an 01 mustang before and I think they supplied a 180 thermostat. Ran fine.

And I am using API CJ-4 diesel truck oil in both my cars. Cars run fine.
 

LokiWolf

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Location
Richmond, VA
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL
And I am using API CJ-4 diesel truck oil in both my cars. Cars run fine.
Oh boy, be prepared to get blasted...that is sacrilege around here.

I am using Valvoline's 5W-30 505.01 rated SynPower oil, and I don't appear to have any CAM wear, but I am going to look again tomorrow.

Valvoline has a 5W-40 that is supposedly 505.01 rated also.

Ray
 

Jnitrofish

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Location
Texas
TDI
2005.5, 2005.5, and 2006. 5m, 5m, and DSG.
Oh boy, be prepared to get blasted...that is sacrilege around here.

Is it? I will add then that I also am putting my own additives into it as well. :eek:

Let the feces fly. :D

But seriously right now all I have used is TDT (which is a 5w40), same thing everyone else does. After 3 (4 kinda) cam failures you start to consider alternatives.
 
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LokiWolf

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Location
Richmond, VA
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL
TDT?

Trust me, I have no issues with it. I was going to use the 5W-40 Full Syn that I use in my F-250, but I got told that it didn't meet VW standards...

Ray
 

kcfoxie

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
It's pretty evident if it has wear. An untrained eye will see the discoloration and go "that don't look right." Any scuffing, pitting or scoring is a bad sign.

LokiWolf: I use TDT in my car. Many report lower FE in their oil analysis. You're good. And in good company.
 
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striker

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Location
Canada
TDI
None
Oh boy, be prepared to get blasted...that is sacrilege around here.

I am using Valvoline's 5W-30 505.01 rated SynPower oil, and I don't appear to have any CAM wear, but I am going to look again tomorrow.

Valvoline has a 5W-40 that is supposedly 505.01 rated also.

Ray

Keep us posted on your cam wear if you dont mind, even PM me. How many of you guys are still on the original cam and with how many miles?
 

Henrick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
Keep us posted on your cam wear if you dont mind, even PM me. How many of you guys are still on the original cam and with how many miles?
Our company cars with mileage reaching as high as 180k-220k miles are all (yes, *all*) of them on original cams. OTOH, that's probably because they all have FVWSH...
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
Mobil 1 TDT 5W-40 oil is higher viscosity than some 505.01 oils. All my bearing tests were done with TDT and even it does not seem to be the best. In my red neck brain the only time you actually raise viscosity in the PD is when you have 50 weight on the end. The injection pressure rises at WOT and high RPM thus the need for viscosity need rises with RPM and WOT. There is though the natural better hydrodynamic film at higher RPMs using any weight oil (always different laws interacting). SBAtdijetta proved that 5W-30 will not work at really high RPMs (IMHO).

It appears that those who cruise at interstate speeds, in cooler regions, can use 5W-40 and go for extended mileages. It appears that hot area folks can not survive as well even with 5W-40.

Against a lot of advice I am running 15W-50 oil now and will be changing to 20W-50 for the winter. It comes with a Warning though. This is for testing and I realize a thinner oil might work for the winter. We will never know If I do not do this. I am also running cantilever relief bearings to allow less bending in cam bearings due to the higher viscosity oil. Bearing wear should be checked in a couple of weeks.

If anyone comes up with a better certified 20W-50 oil than the Valvoline SYN Power, let me know.

eddif
 

Jnitrofish

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Location
Texas
TDI
2005.5, 2005.5, and 2006. 5m, 5m, and DSG.
The injection pressure rises at WOT and high RPM thus the need for viscosity need rises with RPM and WOT.

eddif
Injection pressures remain constant, they went to this system for emissions reasons and it by design cant inject at a lower pressure. The actual injection event is timed via the computer using a solenoid that allows fuel to enter and exit the injector. The injection actually starts when the fuel inside is pressurized enough to lift the spring loaded pin that opens the nozzle. Duration or length of the injection just increases until the amount of fuel requested is injected, then the solenoid opens and pressure inside the injector is released back into the fuel system. Also, these injectors are not maxed out on fuel delivery until you get a tune anyways, so there is built in overhead.
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
Injection pressures remain constant, they went to this system for emissions reasons and it by design cant inject at a lower pressure. The actual injection event is timed via the computer using a solenoid that allows fuel to enter and exit the injector. The injection actually starts when the fuel inside is pressurized enough to lift the spring loaded pin that opens the nozzle. Duration or length of the injection just increases until the amount of fuel requested is injected, then the solenoid opens and pressure inside the injector is released back into the fuel system. Also, these injectors are not maxed out on fuel delivery until you get a tune anyways, so there is built in overhead.
I know I am not intelligent to cover all this. Let me get a link and debate this elsewhere.

eddif
 

Jnitrofish

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Jun 24, 2009
Location
Texas
TDI
2005.5, 2005.5, and 2006. 5m, 5m, and DSG.
If people including yourself really wanted to know how unit injectors work then then they can go find some reading material themselves and derive their own conclusions.
 
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eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
If people including yourself really wanted to know how unit injectors work then then they can go find some reading material themselves and derive their own conclusions.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=284112&highlight=development&page=3
Start about post 36

A history of unit injectors would help some. Unit injectors did not suddenly appear with electronic control. Unit injectors were mechanical for a long time. The Cummins NTC used a time fill process that used restrictors, orfices, and a rising pressure primary pump to control injection. As far as I can tell all this still exists in the PD. The only difference is the electronics decides where to start and stop the injection event.

We have 4 (?) different injection systems on the VW Diesel.
The radial mechanical VE pump
The Electronic radial pump
The electronic PD
The electronic CR

Each has its own little difference in what goes on. The electronics refines the actions of the mechanical, but the mechanical is still there.

We actually have an online link to PD operation, but IMHO it is too simple to really get into PD cam wear using the information.
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/11476VW_TDI_with_PumpeDuse.pdf

A little discussion here
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=241279&highlight=Bosch+pd+injection+link&page=24
post 350.... most of the egg throwing is over by this post. Being an online Gamer you know all about the weapons (?).
++++++++++


I do not have any better information. It hopefully exists but I do not know where it is.

We do not need to argue, and if we can not find more detailed information we might not can discuss much.

eddif
 
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Jnitrofish

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Location
Texas
TDI
2005.5, 2005.5, and 2006. 5m, 5m, and DSG.
The pressure rises to between 27,121 psi
(187,000 kPa / 1,870 bar) and 27,846 psi
(192,000 kPa / 1,920 bar) because more
fuel is displaced in the high-pressure
chamber than can escape through the
nozzle holes.

Maximum fuel pressure is achieved at
maximum engine output. This occurs at a
high engine speed when a large quantity of
fuel is being injected.
Can't be more ambiguous than that. I read it as maximum fuel pressure meaning the higher of those two numbers.

That VW document pretty much described it too a tee, they actually know how their injectors work.
 
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