Calling turbo gurus, 3.0d Holset turbo,

Hello all!

I'm at a brick wall now after spending a week trying to read through the forums trying to figure out the better suited turbo for a 3.0tdi engine (specifically 330d m57n2 but I figure there is no better place than here to be enlightened by the few turbo gurus I've read countless posts from!)

My goal is 500bhp. I've narrowed it down to the holsets as I can get hold of either a

1) He351ve (comp 60-86, turb 70-60mm approximately the same size as a BW s360v). I believe turbine housing is 25cm and can be closed down to 3cm.
OR

2) He431ve (comp 60-86, turbine 76-67) 29cm turbine housing.

Om606 (obvs idi, so not sure how that differs from common rail with regards to volumetric efficiency/bmep or whatever the fancy stuff needed to spool turbo is) bunch seem to be of consensus that the he351ve is restricted by the turbine, the comp can flow more but past 400bhp, emp increases, no more power despite lots of fuel and smokes.

I know of Bobby Singh (hi Bobby) on here with 3.0tdi vag that's got a funky custom s300v and hit 500bhp on his A4 and another chap with a 330d that hit 465bhp ish with a variant of s360v. I think at 3.2bar? Is there much difference between a BW s360v and a holset he351ve- housing size, efficiency/design wise?

The he431v is quite a bit cheaper for me to buy if that makes any difference.

The 351 and 431 have the same size comp wheel. But the 431 has the same size turbine wheel as a hx40.

I don't want something ridiculously "un-dailyable", but with a reasonable boost threshold and response range.

The 431 seems to be similar in size to the gen1 gt4082v which has made 500bhp on a 3.0d m57n BMW. About 3bar pressure, peak torque of about 750lbft from 3k rpm!

Could someone please help, which turbo 351ve or 431ve would be better suited and why - any advice greatly appreciated!

The alternative is a hybrid gtb2271v which from what I can gather is far from ideal as it has a stock turbine wheel still and will cost nearly as much to have made.

Cheers

Hi there,


Sent a PM to Rub87 http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=54079
He has another similar unit to mine.


I now make 2bar boost by 2.7k so its totally usable every day. Done over 20k on it now with no issues.


Cheers
Bobby

Hi Bobby, cheers. I'll send him a pm. I presume it's pricey? These holsets are on the cheaper side which is the appeal.

I think the holsets (especially the he431ve - 8.9L cummins) are 24volt as some are off trucks. Can this actuator still be used and coded/calibrated for in the sw?

I think the holsets are PWM as it the BMW. Or would I have to somehow get the BMW actuator fitted? I'm not familiar with this sort of stuff.

Thanks,
Niv

Bobby Singh said:

Hi there,


Sent a PM to Rub87 http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=54079
He has another similar unit to mine.


I now make 2bar boost by 2.7k so its totally usable every day. Done over 20k on it now with no issues.


Cheers
Bobby

Click to expand...

Sure if you want cheap then you can usually forget about spool
Best to use BMW actuator.


If you want hybrid I have decent wheels that can support 430hp at least on a Audi 3.0TDI anyway.

He***ve holset turbos use can bus to communicate to the ecu. And I would use a he431ve due to it having more turbine capacity. Actuator would have to be from Bmw or otherwise custom.

Why dont you put S360V? 60/88 compressor and spools good. Can support more than 500bhp in 3.0tdi.

Bobby Singh said:

Sure if you want cheap then you can usually forget about spool
Best to use BMW actuator.


If you want hybrid I have decent wheels that can support 430hp at least on a Audi 3.0TDI anyway.

Click to expand...

I know, unfortunately I can't have my cake and eat it in this instance!

I'm just trying to learn a bit more so that I understand better. I remember reading that your hybrid efr/s300v turbo was so eager to spool that you had issues with surge and thus had to open up vanes to limit this, introducing some lag.

My very primitive understanding is that the exhaust housing could potentially be closed off on a (relative) lag monster like he431ve to aid low down response and spool and because it's got a larger heavier turbine /comp wheels (maybe larger trim is more relevant or the correct term here?), It would not spool as hard, and hopefully avoid running into surge line? But hopefully still remain responsive enough given the more closed vanes.

I don't know if that even makes sense.

I guess I need to read up about compressor surge and how it relates to my particular engine.

BustedBolts said:

He***ve holset turbos use can bus to communicate to the ecu. And I would use a he431ve due to it having more turbine capacity. Actuator would have to be from Bmw or otherwise custom.

Click to expand...

Thank you for this information. Are you 100% on the canbus?

Vendor confirmed the he431ve runs 24volt. The vendor for ve351ve reckons that his is 12volt actuator (makes sense as they're off a pickup).

Are borg Warner vgt's Pwm? Or canbus too?

I was hoping to stick to holset actuator as it is gear driven and actuator is conveniently located on turbo.

That was my thinking too, that the compressor wheel would not be hindered by the turbine side in 431. But then, the 351ve is MASSIVE compared to stock gtb2260v. Would turbine side of 351 only cause restrictions if pushing beyond certain level of power/boost? (I.e. due to resulting emp?). So just for eg. If I keep below 450bhp it would be better to stick to 351ve as it's more responsive. Above 500bhp - use 431ve and sacrifice low rpm spool for top end?


Do you think there would be much observable effect on spool considering 351ve is 25cm housing and 431ve is 29cm? The turbine is also decently bigger on 431.

Yucca said:

Why dont you put S360V? 60/88 compressor and spools good. Can support more than 500bhp in 3.0tdi.

Click to expand...

I've been looking for a s360v but no luck. The ones I can get from abroad are working out to 3x the price of holset.

I've compared the compressor and turbine specs of s360v to the holsets, and the he351ve and 431ve sit quite close.

S360v turbine 62/79.5, (difference 15.5mm)
he431ve turbine is 67/76 - (difference 9mm- how does difference between inducer/exducer alter spool/flow?)

Comp wheel similar in bw and holset.

The holsets are a 2007-2009 design I think. Are the borg Warner better/more efficient designs or similar to holset? (Like how the Garrett gtb22v is far superior to the earlier gt22v units?) Thanks

Totally different VNT mechanism, S360V vanes can be controlled by your car stock electronic actuator. Dont know how Holset adjustable turbine housing volume really works. And how heavy are those holsets? S360V weights like 20kg.

I have sold many S360Vs. Not one right now but i have channels to get one...

Yucca said:

Totally different VNT mechanism, S360V vanes can be controlled by your car stock electronic actuator. Dont know how Holset adjustable turbine housing volume really works. And how heavy are those holsets? S360V weights like 20kg.

I have sold many S360Vs. Not one right now but i have channels to get one...

Click to expand...

A short video showing the holset vgt mechanism
https://youtu.be/y9bi3hTaFUA

The actuator is gear driven I think - it bolts to the turbo on the core and drives the mechanism - I.e. there is no external rod assembly to drive the vgt.

I had a quick look, it appears only the he351ve is the only one that's canbus! The 341 and 431ve look to be Pwm, same as car. I could either weld together the BMW actuator to the 351ve. Or how about using a standalone controller? Not ideal is it?

He351ve is about 22kg. 431ve obviously heavier.

How much do s360v go for on average?

D3D said:

I know, unfortunately I can't have my cake and eat it in this instance!

I'm just trying to learn a bit more so that I understand better. I remember reading that your hybrid efr/s300v turbo was so eager to spool that you had issues with surge and thus had to open up vanes to limit this, introducing some lag.

My very primitive understanding is that the exhaust housing could potentially be closed off on a (relative) lag monster like he431ve to aid low down response and spool and because it's got a larger heavier turbine /comp wheels (maybe larger trim is more relevant or the correct term here?), It would not spool as hard, and hopefully avoid running into surge line? But hopefully still remain responsive enough given the more closed vanes.

I don't know if that even makes sense.

I guess I need to read up about compressor surge and how it relates to my particular engine.

Click to expand...

My surge issue was down to many reasons - there is in gear surge and surge as the gears change. Without correct tuning the hardware is useless. I now also run a different comp housing which helped.


Considering a hybrid 2260 makes 2bar at 2.5k in 3rd gear, the S300 is doing very well to reach the same boost by another 200rpm.


With enough fuel its a 600hp unit.


Cheers

Bobby Singh said:

My surge issue was down to many reasons - there is in gear surge and surge as the gears change. Without correct tuning the hardware is useless. I now also run a different comp housing which helped.


Considering a hybrid 2260 makes 2bar at 2.5k in 3rd gear, the S300 is doing very well to reach the same boost by another 200rpm.


With enough fuel its a 600hp unit.


Cheers

Click to expand...

Is that the hybrid unit you have that makes the same boost as a hybrid 2260 200rpm later, or a factory bw360v?

If you were in my position to chose from a he351ve or a 431ve given the difference in comp and turbine wheel size and exhaust housing, which would you pick if I may ask?

As you say, the key is in the mapping, and so your opinion would be incredibly valuable in helping sway decision one way or the other.

I will be looking to fit a modified r90 from earlier m57n 330d and stiffer valve springs at the very least.

I wonder if the he431ve will add any significant delay in boost threshold/response time and warrant the benefit gained from larger turbine wheel and housing - or whether the 351ve would even hinder because of smaller turbine side.

A larger turbine wheel and housing can surely be worked around with closing vanes off? And then you get benefit at higher rpm with better flow?

If you want cheap and decent do what Yucca has suggested and go for a s360v.
If you struggle to find one I can maybe ask around.
Cheers

Bobby Singh said:

If you want cheap and decent do what Yucca has suggested and go for a s360v.
If you struggle to find one I can maybe ask around.
Cheers

Click to expand...

If you could ask around that would be appreciated Bobby, thanks.

On that note, the he431ve is the next closest match in that case so I suppose that's the next best after a s360v.

HE351VE vs HE431VE. In 351, compressor wheel is big compared to turbine. This can be compensated with big volute housing to increase the flow. Unfortunately relatively small wheel and big housing usually works most efficiently at low pressure ratios (<2~). In OP's application PR would be closer to 4 than 2. With 431 you can use nozzle ring more closed position and efficiency peaks at higher PR. 431 TW also has bigger trim and usually this also moves peak efficiency to higher PR. I don't have turbine maps for neither one, but based on data I've got, I doubt HE351VE's ability to support 500bhp. It sure spools better.

HE351VE vs. S360V. Holset has quite modern compressor design. Blades have strong reward bent compared to BW which increases efficiency. On the other hand pressure ratio against rpm is lower in Holset design so shaft needs to spin faster. However Holset allows far faster tip speed for CW's so it doesn't necessarily lose anything in max PR. I don't have maps for neither one but my conclusion of design is that Holset's compressor would work at better efficiency in OP's application.

On turbine side Holset vane angle is fixed and only flow area changes. BW changes both flow area and vane angle. So in Holset the shaft speed can be controlled only controlling flow speed not the angle. Because of variable vane angle and 2mm bigger exducer I'm guessing BW flows more. Based on S300V turbine map (matched to low EGT's and 8027 cw so it needed some extrapolation) 500 bhp could be possible with decent EMP (EMP~boost).

One thing you should keep on mind comparing Schwitzer (BW) and Holset are bearings. Schwitzer won't handle much overspinning which might result, for example, from popping a boost hose. Holset can take far more abuse.

When talking about over 400 bhp GTB22 based hybrids suit best in trash can.

I would try HE431VE if it's cheap.

D3D said:

If you could ask around that would be appreciated Bobby, thanks.

On that note, the he431ve is the next closest match in that case so I suppose that's the next best after a s360v.

Click to expand...

Hi I managed to get this unit S360v -

[FONT=&quot]https://imgur.com/a/Kz1qLZ4
[/FONT]
Compressor and turbine look fine and VNT is nice and free

if you are interested drop me a email:
BobbySinghRacing@outlook.com

Cheers