my brakes are driving me crazy

PnutButrJelytime · Jul 6, 2009

ok i have an 02 jetta, 120K miles auto tranny. i am having problems with my brakes.

the issue:
-the right front and left rear calipers will lock up when i use the brakes
-i can push the pedal all the way to the floor
-i can get the brakes to release when i either back up and hit the brakes
or push the pedal to the ground.
-the left rear is squeaking when they are not locked up

things i have done to date in order
-replaced rear pads and rotors, greased every movable part
-replaced front pads and calipers, had the front rotors turned, also
greased all movable parts
-bled the system
-re-replaced the right front caliper
-flushed the system following the proper seguence.

all right i think thats it. now i am thinking its the master cylinder thats bad because of the pedal being able to reach the floor. but the calipers locking up make me think its something else. the proportioning valve controls the front and rear seperatly correct? Also i called trash auto about a new master cylinder and the guy asked if i had something like electonic stabilty contol. did these cars have that option? If so how do i tell if i have this or not. i drive about 80 miles a day so driving to work is very intersting a pain in the butt.

thebigarniedog · Jul 6, 2009

PnutButrJelytime said:
ok i have an 02 jetta, 120K miles auto tranny. i am having problems with my brakes.

the issue:
-the right front and left rear calipers will lock up when i use the brakes
-i can push the pedal all the way to the floor
-i can get the brakes to release when i either back up and hit the brakes
or push the pedal to the ground.
-the left rear is squeaking when they are not locked up

things i have done to date in order
-replaced rear pads and rotors, greased every movable part
-replaced front pads and calipers, had the front rotors turned, also
greased all movable parts
-bled the system
-re-replaced the right front caliper
-flushed the system following the proper seguence.

all right i think thats it. now i am thinking its the master cylinder thats bad because of the pedal being able to reach the floor. but the calipers locking up make me think its something else. the proportioning valve controls the front and rear seperatly correct? Also i called trash auto about a new master cylinder and the guy asked if i had something like electonic stabilty contol. did these cars have that option? If so how do i tell if i have this or not. i drive about 80 miles a day so driving to work is very intersting a pain in the butt.

Wow, I have more questions than you have. Why did you replace the calipers

and then re-replace the front one? Did you use a motive power bleeder or did you do the pump and fail brake bleed technique? Did the fluid go below the minimum level? If you ran it below the minimum level, you can use vagcom to actuate the abs system to purge it. Have you tried that?

Was this condition existing prior to the work being performed? Who did the work?

See told ya. Btw, I believe the 2002 had ASR and ESP as an option. The "guy" asked you that when figuring which master cylinder to order for ya.

thebigarniedog · Jul 6, 2009

P.S. The easiest way to tell if your car is equipped with "ASR" or "ESP" is to look under your center vents for a button labeled accordingly. No button, not equipped.

PnutButrJelytime · Jul 6, 2009

thebigarniedog said:
Wow, I have more questions than you have. Why did you replace the calipers and then re-replace the front one? Did you use a motive power bleeder or did you do the pump and fail brake bleed technique? Did the fluid go below the minimum level? If you ran it below the minimum level, you can use vagcom to actuate the abs system to purge it. Have you tried that?

Was this condition existing prior to the work being performed? Who did the work?

See told ya. Btw, I believe the 2002 had ASR and ESP as an option. The "guy" asked you that when figuring which master cylinder to order for ya.

i replaced the front calipers when i felt the front brakes locking up and the excessive brake dust confirmed this. i re-replaced the right front caliper when it continued to lock up. which didn't help.

when i bled the brakes i did the hose and can trick, holding the can higher then the bleeder valve. i don't belive the fluid went below the minimum level. would the abs light be on or are there any other syptoms i should keep and eye out for if this were the case?

the time that i started having this issue a few things happened. i slid into a curb cracking my left front wheel. yes the alignment was messed up but i don't recall any issue at that time. i had replaced the rear pads and rotors useing the wind back tool from advaced auto. i was told i should have opened the bleeder valves on the calipers. i opened the cap on the MC resivour like i have been doing on all other brake jobs in the past.

i have been the one doing all the work on the car. never had a problem before so i assumed i would not have a problem now. but you know what they say when you assume.

i knew there were 2 different types of MC for my car i just didn't know which one i needed. i will look for that button, i am guessing if there is no button then that means i have the ASR?

thebigarniedog · Jul 7, 2009

PnutButrJelytime said:
i replaced the front calipers when i felt the front brakes locking up and the excessive brake dust confirmed this. i re-replaced the right front caliper when it continued to lock up. which didn't help.

I am assuming from your post (and correct me if I am wrong) that you are running oem parts (i.e. no ebay/chinese/autozone crap).

The front calipers should not have been replaced unless upon visual and functional inspection they are damaged. You would be surprised what a generous amount of antiseize can accomplish. The fact that your experiencing the same problem after the installation of new parts confirms that they were not the problem in the first place.

PnutButrJelytime said:
.... when i bled the brakes i did the hose and can trick, holding the can higher then the bleeder valve. i don't belive the fluid went below the minimum level. would the abs light be on or are there any other syptoms i should keep and eye out for if this were the case?

You need to borrow or buy a motive power bleeder and bleed the brake system correctly. This is not a chevy. The abs light being on or off is not relevant to whether you allowed the master to go below the minimum level. You should use vagcom to bleed the abs system. Your problem could very well be (all things being equal) that you have not bled all the air out of the new calipers and the abs system.

PnutButrJelytime said:
.... the time that i started having this issue a few things happened. i slid into a curb cracking my left front wheel. yes the alignment was messed up but i don't recall any issue at that time. i had replaced the rear pads and rotors useing the wind back tool from advaced auto. i was told i should have opened the bleeder valves on the calipers. i opened the cap on the MC resivour like i have been doing on all other brake jobs in the past.

So, did the brakes start acting up before or after you ran into the curb? You did do a complete visual inspection of the lines afterwards?

Peanutbtjellytime said:
...i have been the one doing all the work on the car. never had a problem before so i assumed i would not have a problem now. but you know what they say when you assume.

i knew there were 2 different types of MC for my car i just didn't know which one i needed. i will look for that button, i am guessing if there is no button then that means i have the ASR?

No button means neither ASR nor ESP. How about some pictures? I think you need to eliminate: (1) were the brakes re-assembled correctly (correct tension on the assembled rotor (for lack of a better way of saying it); (2) that the system is bled correctly as well as the abs before going further.

PnutButrJelytime · Jul 7, 2009

i would like to retract my last statement of only the right front and left rear rear caliper locking up. last night when i was going home from work i could feal the brakes acting up again. when it was safe to pull over i noticed all 4 rotors were red hot.

the calipers were from pep boys, sence they were the only one around that had them in stock. i will look into buying a motive bleeder tonight, so i can do the job right.
i would say the brakes were acting up after the curb. also i put 4 new aftermarket wheels and tires on because of the curb incident, they wouldn't be causeing a problem right? i did a once over and had my buddy look over the car when he had it on the alignment machine. no noticeable issues. maybe this weekend i can put it up on the lift and really get in there and check everything out.
i am guessing you want a pic of the master cylinder?
what do you mean by correct tension? are you talking about the correct torgue on the lugs or what? and i guess i can try and find someone in the area with vagcom or i could just go to a professional. which is what i was trying to avoid sence money is a bit on the tight side.

KROUT · Jul 7, 2009

I had a customer that had a bad master cylinder that had similar symptoms as you. Only his was more intermittent. I replaced it and it never happened to him again.

Do you even notice any weirdness of how the pedal feels when you press the brake? Like a hard spot for a split second. Does the pedal stay up higher after you pump the pedal.

thebigarniedog · Jul 7, 2009

PnutButrJelytime said:
i would like to retract my last statement of only the right front and left rear rear caliper locking up. last night when i was going home from work i could feal the brakes acting up again. when it was safe to pull over i noticed all 4 rotors were red hot.

the calipers were from pep boys, sence they were the only one around that had them in stock. i will look into buying a motive bleeder tonight, so i can do the job right.
i would say the brakes were acting up after the curb. also i put 4 new aftermarket wheels and tires on because of the curb incident, they wouldn't be causeing a problem right? i did a once over and had my buddy look over the car when he had it on the alignment machine. no noticeable issues. maybe this weekend i can put it up on the lift and really get in there and check everything out.
i am guessing you want a pic of the master cylinder?
what do you mean by correct tension? are you talking about the correct torgue on the lugs or what? and i guess i can try and find someone in the area with vagcom or i could just go to a professional. which is what i was trying to avoid sence money is a bit on the tight side.

Don't drive the car till this problem is fixed. You do not want to turn a bad situation into a biblical catastrophe. You need to confirm that the brakes are correct and bled properly, then yes, try a new master cylinder. You might want to return the pep boys chinese parts and re-install your original calipers and buy a motive bleeder then the master cylinder.

KROUT · Jul 7, 2009

I never use a brake bleeder and have never had any problems getting air out.

t-spec · Jul 7, 2009

PnutButrJelytime said:
the proportioning valve controls the front and rear seperatly correct?

I believe all newer cars are split diagonally in case one line fails you would have either front left/rear right or front right/rear left working together. If it were front/rear split proportioning and you lost your fronts your rears alone would not safely stop your car from speed.

PnutButrJelytime · Jul 7, 2009

ok this might sound crazy. before i left work for the long ride home i wanted to see if there was a vaccum leak thinking thats why the pressure stays in the lines and does not release. so i pulled the smaller hose that tee's off of the big vaccum line going to the brake booster. i could feal the vaccum ao i replaced the small hose. the entire ride home including a few stops i have not had any problems. does this make sense or is it just the calm before the storm?

KROUT · Jul 7, 2009

Vac leak wont cause the problems you have it may cause a still pedal but wont change how the brakes work much.

thebigarniedog · Jul 7, 2009

PnutButrJelytime said:
ok this might sound crazy. before i left work for the long ride home i wanted to see if there was a vaccum leak thinking thats why the pressure stays in the lines and does not release. so i pulled the smaller hose that tee's off of the big vaccum line going to the brake booster. i could feal the vaccum ao i replaced the small hose. the entire ride home including a few stops i have not had any problems. does this make sense or is it just the calm before the storm?

Which is why you check for obvious stuff before hanging a bunch of expensive parts.

Krout said:
I never use a brake bleeder and have never had any problems getting air out.

okay? I shake twice, never had a problem

.

KROUT · Jul 7, 2009

thebigarniedog said:
thebigarniedog said:

okay? I shake twice, never had a problem .

Click to expand...

ok but any more than that and your playing with it.

Dakovich · Jul 7, 2009

thebigarniedog said:
You might want to return the pep boys chinese parts and re-install your original calipers

similarly, I bought 2 new rear calipers and one for the front pass side and they were all remanufactured...are you saying they are reman'd in China and thus crap? I had a hard time finding "all-new" calipers, mostly just reman'd stuff...I do think NAPA had some "all-new" calipers but they were made in Germany. Either way, I'd rather have the reman'd stuff than what I had on there.

PnutButrJelytime · Jul 7, 2009

the calipers i got from pep boys had VW and Audi writen on it. so to me thats OEM with new parts on it.

thebigarniedog · Jul 7, 2009

Dakovich said:
similarly, I bought 2 new rear calipers and one for the front pass side and they were all remanufactured...are you saying they are reman'd in China and thus crap? I had a hard time finding "all-new" calipers, mostly just reman'd stuff...I do think NAPA had some "all-new" calipers but they were made in Germany. Either way, I'd rather have the reman'd stuff than what I had on there.

I recognize that products from China are cheap and are becoming the norm in many areas including auto parts. You get what you pay. So my short answer is that made in China = Crapware. The long technical answer is made in China = Crapware.

PnutButrJelytime · Jul 7, 2009

KROUT said:
Do you even notice any weirdness of how the pedal feels when you press the brake? Like a hard spot for a split second. Does the pedal stay up higher after you pump the pedal.

no it seems smooth all the way through. other then being able to reach the floor the pedal feels normal. if i pump them they do seem to firm up a bit but then the pads will be tight against the rotors. which means i will have to push the brake pedal to the floor again to release them.

Antsrcool · Jul 7, 2009

it sounds to me like your rubber brake hoses are collapsing within and not allowing teh pressure to release. one way to check this is to open the bleeder. Does the caliper release? If so suspect brake hose. If not suspect caliper. On the rear i assumed you have checked all parts of the E-brake

PnutButrJelytime · Jul 7, 2009

Antsrcool said:
it sounds to me like your rubber brake hoses are collapsing within and not allowing teh pressure to release. one way to check this is to open the bleeder. Does the caliper release? If so suspect brake hose. If not suspect caliper. On the rear i assumed you have checked all parts of the E-brake

i was planning on going over the e-brake this weekend. so while the car is on the lift I'll check the bleeder valve. one question with that though is wheres the happy ending? "if it releases" does that mean all the way open or a millimeter or 2.

KROUT · Jul 7, 2009

I still think its a master cylinder its easy to change and is less than 100 bucks from autohausaz.com

DPM · Jul 7, 2009

^^ tend to agree with krout. Needing to press the pedal to release the brakes following a hard application is NOT NORMAL! Either m/c or booster must be the issue.

thebigarniedog · Jul 9, 2009

DPM said:
^^ tend to agree with krout. Needing to press the pedal to release the brakes following a hard application is NOT NORMAL! Either m/c or booster must be the issue.

Very well could be. The problem with alot of these threads is the need to play 20 questions to get information that should be provided in post number one asking for help. My understanding is that this problem originated with a crash into a curb (not reported in the initial post) and then a host of parts were replaced without success. No visual inspection of the lines and system was performed by the OP prior to replacing these parts or engaging in remedial work. I asked these questions in post number 2 and post number 5.

We have a brake bleed performed without a motive bleeder and the OP is uncertain whether the fluid level went below the minimum

; the OP apparently does not have a VCDS to use the abs system; we have different stories as to what is locking up and what is not locking up. We have pep-boy brake parts. Not exactly a perfect environment for making good choices.

I acknowledge that you can tear out the entire existing system and replace it with new parts (that is what a guy did on an AC problem recently. Big dollars spent, problem fixed. Needless parts scrapped. Brilliant stuff). IMHO, an interesting case study of how not to fix a problem. I would and have suggested a more deliberate approach: to actually diagnose the problem and replace only those parts that are actually defective

. The present case is truly reflective of the saying when your in a hole, stop digging.

So if as the OP has suggested that the problem is now fixed via an inspection and finding of a bad hose/line that should have been performed initially, great. If not, lets go back to the beginning and proceed in an orderly process rather than hanging more parts. My opinions and I have been known to be wrong.

thebigarniedog · Jul 15, 2009

Bumping this thread back up ..... OP, can you chime in on the status here. Thanks

PnutButrJelytime · Jul 16, 2009

thebigarniedog said:
OP, can you chime in on the status here. Thanks

as of now the brakes are working perfectly. no problems to report. I don't know why they are working but I’m happy they are. could it be some residual air worked it self out, or maybe a piece of debris that was stuck became unstuck?

McBrew · Jul 16, 2009

Fixed itself, did it?

PnutButrJelytime · Jul 16, 2009

hey, all i'm saying is i pulled vacuum line to check for suck and pressed down on the MC resivour and vuala, cross the arms twitch the nose and presto i have brakes. its shear magin i tell you.

thebigarniedog · Jul 17, 2009

PnutButrJelytime said:
hey, all i'm saying is i pulled vacuum line to check for suck and pressed down on the MC resivour and vuala, cross the arms twitch the nose and presto i have brakes. its shear magin i tell you.

I win the thread

my brakes are driving me crazy

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