Standard transmissions are for losers - discuss...

jason_ · Jul 21, 2014

Wet and dry clutches are a bit different as far as wear and slip/grip.

Newer drive by wire extends clutches in AT and sat/dsg, as they can cut torque and driver doesn't need to change anything as clutches do their thing.

Poor old school autos need to release one pack and apply the next... sometimes at full torque....

Buuurrrrnnnnn that lining! Wet setups extend it, but everything has its limits.

Sent from my rooted HTC Supersonic using Tapatalk 2 Pro

GCBUG00 · Jul 21, 2014

PakProtector said:
My truck is a 12V Cummins with an NV5600 and a 3.08 FDR...you can read the Gates label on the serpentine belt at highway speed. One firing stroke per telegraph pole...
Douglas

Douglas,

Unless you've watched a Cummins serp belt rolling by, you can't really appreciate how good that description really is.

'05 and '97 CTD's at home and the P7100 pump alone looks like a Kubota engine salesman's sample demonstrator on the '97.

Nice one.

I'm sticking with a stick.

Gary

PakProtector · Jul 21, 2014

Lol...and now I can't resist doing the math. Figure 1k5 at 60 mph. One mile in a minute; 1500 revolutions. telegraph pole spacing? 100 yards? 5 per quarter mile? Couple hundred firing strokes...

Add to the DSG issues is the need to teach them where the engagement point is after a replacement. Swap in your driveway( assuming you have the special tools ), and I doubt it will drive itself to the dealership to have it done. No effin' thanks.
cheers,
Douglas

Perfectreign · Jul 21, 2014

ezshift5 said:
......doing all those tasks while underway, you must fit right in with the southern California lifestyle.
I wish you the best (but have some reservations about multi-tasking while operating a motor vehicle)..............
ez

LOL!!

Well, at least I gave up emailing back. I also only text using voice commands.

Just so happens I was bored this morning and wondered what my phone would do as a dash-cam. You can see what 80% of my drive looks like. Not much else for me to do...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DU5jwr7Khs

thecause17 · Jul 21, 2014

PakProtector said:
Add to the DSG issues is the need to teach them where the engagement point is after a replacement. Swap in your driveway( assuming you have the special tools ), and I doubt it will drive itself to the dealership to have it done. No effin' thanks.
cheers,
Douglas

When speaking of special tools is one of them VCDS so you can do the proper calibration procedure?

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/6-Speed_Direct_Shift_Gearbox_%28DSG/02E%29

skromfols · Jul 23, 2014

When I went looking for a JSW TDI with a standard transmission I found a dealer in the San Francisco Bay area that have 4 or 5 of them, so I had a choice of trim levels, however, he wanted a $3,000 premium over list price because the standard transmission is so rare. I continued looking and found another dealer who did some dealer trading to get me what I wanted and still gave me a good price.

I needed the standard transmission because I'm going to tow a small trailer occasionally with my motorcycle or ATV and the VW says not to tow with the automatic.

I can still remember when my grandfather taught me to drive in his 47 Plymouth (3 on the tree) he said that when you drove an automatic you were just pointing and shooting, but when you have a standard transmission you were actually driving the vehicle. I still think he was right.

belome · Jul 23, 2014

Perfectreign said:
Just so happens I was bored this morning and wondered what my phone would do as a dash-cam. You can see what 80% of my drive looks like. Not much else for me to do...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DU5jwr7Khs

rwolff · Jul 23, 2014

belome said:
I drove a Challenger SRT-8 down to Deals Gap for a weekend. With over 500 HP I thought the paddle shift worked great. (Granted, I feel that over 500 HP on the street is just plain silly to start with anyways, but I had no desire to wish it was a manual gearbox.)

500 HP on the street isn't silly - that's what I run in my 2-seater (check my vehicles list and you'll see why my opinion differs from yours

), and in many cases I'm wishing I had more.

Windex said:
Once you get proficient, you use the clutch to start, then match revs after, 1-4 hit the splitter, do it all over again, and with hi/lo if your driving the 18 spd:

Trucking has been a stalwart about retaining standards, but autos are starting to gain some serious traction in the last couple of years.

Even after 8 years, I still double-clutch each shift. "Floating the gears" has the same effect as a veteranarian floating a horse's teeth - you grind off the high spots

. The reason autos are gaining market share (and blocking the aisle in a truck stop because something went wrong and it needs to sit for a half-hour to synch things up) is because of the driver shortage - drivers can handle manuals, steering wheel holders can't, and when the big companies can't get enough drivers they hire steering wheel holders.

belome · Jul 23, 2014

rwolff said:
500 HP on the street isn't silly - that's what I run in my 2-seater

Yeah, I guess you got me there.

My BIL drives crude for a living, he never gets up to speed very fast.

n1das · Jul 23, 2014

I've been a diehard manual transmission driver for many years and I always will be. But lately I've had to make some concession with regard to transmission choice and being able to get the diesel vehicle I want. Like a lot of other TDIers, I'm totally converted to diesel in that I won't own another gasoline-powered vehicle (hype-brids included) ever again if I can help it. No more gassers! ALL future vehicle purchases of mine shall be DIESEL vehicles. If it came down to having to choose between a diesel automatic or a gasser manual, I'll take the diesel auto instead but my preference given a choice will always be manual.

In my 2014 BMW 535d, I've found the 8-speed ZF8 automatic to be one automatic transmission that I really DO like. I have the Sport Automatic Transmission option with the shift paddles. It is an automatic that I'm OK with it being and automatic. It's not a DSG type, it's a conventional torque converter and planetary type of auto. IIRC, the exact same car (sold as a 530d in Europe) is also only offered with the ZF8 auto over there.

I think one reason why the manual transmission "appears" to be going away has to do with exhaust emissions compliance. A car maker can play games with tuning the auto's shift points to help minimize exhaust emissions. Can't do that with a manual very easily. It's about emissions, emissions, emissions...performance and mileage be damned.

GCBUG00 · Jul 23, 2014

I'm sure there are exceptions to this, just like the ZF A/T mentioned by David. But in the US big 3, who made their A/T's? Weren't most A/T's made by the car companies themselves but M/T's were outsourced. So a popular A/T that sells easier was also made by a corporate sister division equaling more corporate revenue but the M/T's were from outside suppliers. I often felt that part of the decision Dodge made on equipping the Dodge Cummins with the G56 in mid '05 was that it came from a corporate sister MB in Brazil and the New Venture company dropped the NV5600 too so more than one reason possible. Not sure who makes the VW M/T.

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 23, 2014

I'm pretty sure VW makes its own transmissions. Europe may well be the reverse of America, with auto makers making their own manuals and outsourcing automatics, although a lot of people outsource automatics these days. I wish I owned stock in ZF.

Tdijarhead · Jul 23, 2014

n1das said:
I've been a diehard manual transmission driver for many years and I always will be. But lately I've had to make some concession with regard to transmission choice and being able to get the diesel vehicle I want. Like a lot of other TDIers, I'm totally converted to diesel in that I won't own another gasoline-powered vehicle (hype-brids included) ever again if I can help it. No more gassers! ALL future vehicle purchases of mine shall be DIESEL vehicles. If it came down to having to choose between a diesel automatic or a gasser manual, I'll take the diesel auto instead but my preference given a choice will always be manual.

In my 2014 BMW 535d, I've found the 8-speed ZF8 automatic to be one automatic transmission that I really DO like. I have the Sport Automatic Transmission option with the shift paddles. It is an automatic that I'm OK with it being and automatic. It's not a DSG type, it's a conventional torque converter and planetary type of auto. IIRC, the exact same car (sold as a 530d in Europe) is also only offered with the ZF8 auto over there.

I think one reason why the manual transmission "appears" to be going away has to do with exhaust emissions compliance. A car maker can play games with tuning the auto's shift points to help minimize exhaust emissions. Can't do that with a manual very easily. It's about emissions, emissions, emissions...performance and mileage be damned.

This is the forum where folks talk about swapping diesel engines in to gas powered donor cars. Swapping manuals for the 01m and some other really wild swaps.

Is it possible to find a manual transmission for say a BMW535d in England or some other European country where they are offered ,get it and all the peripherials, pedals ecu and what ever else is needed, ship it here and do a swap?

Lincoln · Jul 24, 2014

I drove an automatic for several years after my last stick got smashed by a pickup truck. Missed stick the whole time and am thrilled to be back. I do hate stop-and-go with the emissions-dictated engine cutoff at low speeds (makes constantly starting in first at very low speed much more difficult without excessive clutch riding). But that said, the pleasure of a stick, combined with lower purchase cost, improved fuel economy (MTs pretty consistently beat DSGs for NMS Passats, and I don't believe it's fully explained by driving conditions), and lower maintenance costs have me convinced.

2.2TDI · Jul 24, 2014

Tdijarhead said:
This is the forum where folks talk about swapping diesel engines in to gas powered donor cars. Swapping manuals for the 01m and some other really wild swaps.
Is it possible to find a manual transmission for say a BMW535d in England or some other European country where they are offered ,get it and all the peripherials, pedals ecu and what ever else is needed, ship it here and do a swap?

Probably, if you find a smashed up 530d in Europe, or 330d (not sure if that one would work)... And it would cost you a whole lot too... Probably not worth it unless you're made of money and really want the "535d" in stick

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 24, 2014

As my mechanic says, "all it takes is time and money."

I'm dismayed at the lack of manual transmission cars available, gas or diesel. Even grocery getters like the Subaru Legacy are going all automatic. I'm determined to continue to purchase only manual transmission cars, but the selection of new cars is very, very limited. Good thing I like smaller, inexpensive cars, and don't care for AWD. Maybe it's time to go for a 911 before they get rid of manuals, too. The turbo already is automatic only this year.

2.2TDI · Jul 24, 2014

Well...if we truly desire a manual, here in Canada you can get a 15+ year old car imported from europe...probably would cost you the same as swapping a transmission, but it's a 15 year old car at the same time.

So in 2029, we can import a 530d in manual.... or hell, even a 518d.... just think of the possibilities. You can get a 725tds in stick right now

DIXIEDOG · Jul 25, 2014

Scoutx said:
While DSG and autos have their advantages....so do Manuals.

Manual advantages:
1) reliability
2) Durability
3) Life
4) Cost
5) Weight
6) Cheaper maintance

I'm not so sure about that, I don't have much experience with automatic transmissions in cars but I do in trucks. The transmissions are extremely reliable and durable.....they offer a 100k warranty on them so I think the service life is decent...as for cheaper maintenance my 14' Ram 8 speed has "lifetime" fluid with no periodic maintenance required. So I give it to you on weight and cost but the other "advantages" are not clear cut.

Now when you're backing up to a big trailer and need to go back that extra 1/2" to get the coupling to drop onto the ball on an incline the auto is where it's at. Sitting in traffic the auto is great....in the mud the autos tend to do better as well. Not all people drive autos because they are trying to be lazy, some prefer the advantages an auto provides.

Tdijarhead · Jul 25, 2014

DIXIEDOG said:
I'm not so sure about that, I don't have much experience with automatic transmissions in cars but I do in trucks. The transmissions are extremely reliable and durable.....they offer a 100k warranty on them so I think the service life is decent...as for cheaper maintenance my 14' Ram 8 speed has "lifetime" fluid with no periodic maintenance required. So I give it to you on weight and cost but the other "advantages" are not clear cut.

Now when you're backing up to a big trailer and need to go back that extra 1/2" to get the coupling to drop onto the ball on an incline the auto is where it's at. Sitting in traffic the auto is great....in the mud the autos tend to do better as well. Not all people drive autos because they are trying to be lazy, some prefer the advantages an auto provides.

Back in 99-00 vw introduced a sealed transmission with lifetime fluid, it was called the 01m. Anybody ever hear bad thing about it? They for the most part start to fail just north of 100 thousand miles. I don't really think dodge expects those transmissions to last much beyond the warranty, and thats the key phrase, "beyond the warranty "

zoominMS3 · Jul 26, 2014

DIXIEDOG said:
I'm not so sure about that, I don't have much experience with automatic transmissions in cars but I do in trucks. The transmissions are extremely reliable and durable.....they offer a 100k warranty on them so I think the service life is decent...as for cheaper maintenance my 14' Ram 8 speed has "lifetime" fluid with no periodic maintenance required. So I give it to you on weight and cost but the other "advantages" are not clear cut.

Now when you're backing up to a big trailer and need to go back that extra 1/2" to get the coupling to drop onto the ball on an incline the auto is where it's at. Sitting in traffic the auto is great....in the mud the autos tend to do better as well. Not all people drive autos because they are trying to be lazy, some prefer the advantages an auto provides.

Can't tow with a dsg per vw so that's a moot point...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Concat · Jul 28, 2014

The cars I like and think about buying one day are almost always largely based off of the availability of a manual tranny.

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 28, 2014

I was thinking today that VW has the only manual transmission diesels. And a friend of mine told me that BMW brings in no manual transmission 3-Series cars for dealer inventory: orders only. They probably stock a few of the 2, 4, and M5, but you can't walk on a lot and buy a manual transmission 3. Some Driver's Machine.

2.2TDI · Jul 28, 2014

IndigoBlueWagon said:
I was thinking today that VW has the only manual transmission diesels. And a friend of mine told me that BMW brings in no manual transmission 3-Series cars for dealer inventory: orders only. They probably stock a few of the 2, 4, and M5, but you can't walk on a lot and buy a manual transmission 3. Some Driver's Machine.

When my friend bought his 320i, the only manual available had to be shipped from somewhere north of Montreal and they had to pay the transportation fees and wait a while for it, along with red being the only color available, or special order... a few weeks ago walking around a bmw lot, I saw a couple 4 series, one 2 series, and surprisingly one 3 series in stick, everything else was auto...such a shame. Then what's ironic is the fact that there is a market here for a manual M5 (E60 and F10 models) yet they never offered the E60 and now the F10 in stick in Europe, that boggles my mind...

Scoutx · Jul 28, 2014

DIXIEDOG said:
I'm not so sure about that, I don't have much experience with automatic transmissions in cars but I do in trucks. The transmissions are extremely reliable and durable.....they offer a 100k warranty on them so I think the service life is decent...

It probably is descent. A manual however will generally outlive the vehicle it's in. YMMV of course.

DIXIEDOG said:
.as for cheaper maintenance my 14' Ram 8 speed has "lifetime" fluid with no periodic maintenance required.

Do you know what lifetime fluid in an automatic means? It means that your transmission will last only as long as the fluid. Put another way, when your fluid wears out...it kills your transmission. Remember, anything that will survive past the warranty period is "lifetime" for the manufacturer after that they don't care particularly if it means you'll be wanting to buy a new car.

[Side note: All vehicle fluids should be changed on a regular basis as all vehicle fluids have a definite service life even "lifetime"]

DIXIEDOG said:
So I give it to you on weight and cost but the other "advantages" are not clear cut.

If you consider service life and how long the transmission will actually last.

DIXIEDOG said:
Now when you're backing up to a big trailer

<snip>

Moot point since according to VW you can't tow with a DSG.

thecause17 · Jul 29, 2014

Scoutx said:
Moot point since according to VW you can't tow with a DSG.

This is the third or fourth time I've seen this mentioned in this thread. The owners manual for my 2010 clearly states towing values for the DSG. Under the 2.0 TSI specs, both automatic (which would be a DSG) and manual are spec'd at 2000lbs for a trailer with brakes, and 1650lbs for a trailer without brakes. Under the 2.0 TDI specs, it is 1000lbs across the board. I don't understand the repeated comments "you can't tow with a DSG". That's not the case. Whether or not the rating is lower or not is irrelevent and in fact in this case the are the same as the manual numbers for these two engines. The 2.5 has a lower number for automatic than manual, but we are not comparing DSG to manual here as it is a conventional automatic. There is no mention in the manual that it is not recommended to tow with the DSG transmission. All cautions and warnings are blanketed across all transmissions.

I'm not trying to get into any kind of debate here, but I'd like to know where you are coming up with this.

zoominMS3 · Jul 29, 2014

thecause17 said:
This is the third or fourth time I've seen this mentioned in this thread. The owners manual for my 2010 clearly states towing values for the DSG. Under the 2.0 TSI specs, both automatic (which would be a DSG) and manual are spec'd at 2000lbs for a trailer with brakes, and 1650lbs for a trailer without brakes. Under the 2.0 TDI specs, it is 1000lbs across the board. I don't understand the repeated comments "you can't tow with a DSG". That's not the case. Whether or not the rating is lower or not is irrelevent and in fact in this case the are the same as the manual numbers for these two engines. The 2.5 has a lower number for automatic than manual, but we are not comparing DSG to manual here as it is a conventional automatic. There is no mention in the manual that it is not recommended to tow with the DSG transmission. All cautions and warnings are blanketed across all transmissions.

I'm not trying to get into any kind of debate here, but I'd like to know where you are coming up with this.

Search
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=373511

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=362026

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=302838

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=350562

Apparently vw decided no towing with dsg 2011+ in the owners manual

thecause17 · Jul 30, 2014

zoominMS3 said:
Search
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=373511

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=362026

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=302838

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=350562

Apparently vw decided no towing with dsg 2011+ in the owners manual

You'd think they'd send out a supplement to the manual on the mkv cars. Then again, most of those are out of factory warranty now anyway, so they probably don't care.

I have a hitch on mine, but I only put it on there for bike racks/cargo carriers,etc...no plans on putting the trailer wiring in and towing with it.

jason_ · Aug 1, 2014

Last night I gave my turbo and gearbox a workout.

Getting rolling was tedious without getting wild with the clutch, but I towed my buddies f350 that had 2k# of gravel in it back home. 10 miles, the hills made it equivalent to 50.

Haha, he burned up his auto, gave me a call and away we went.

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tadawson · Aug 1, 2014

That wasn't a fault due to being an auto, that was a fault due to being a Ford . . . He's lucky though, the trans blew before the PowerJoke . . .

- Tim

jason_ · Aug 1, 2014

tadawson said:
That wasn't a fault due to being an auto, that wasa fault due to being a Ford . . . He's lucky though, the trans blew before the PowerJoke . . .

- Tim

Hehe he, good one. I was poking him, he should of spent money on a Cummins with the hefty g56.

Hes not the brightest. I've noticed when he gets in tight spots dragging his trailer off-road, turning loaded, all 8 tires cutting trenches in the sand, etc etc, , he refuses to use low range on the xfer case.

/me shakes head.

There's no transmission made that's stupid proof....

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Standard transmissions are for losers - discuss...

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