New squealing brakes???

VincenzaV

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Apr 25, 2015
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2004 Jetta Wagon
Hi, I recently did a front brake job on my 2004 Jetta wagon. New OEM rotors (NOT-the economy ones), OEM pads, slides, and slider bushings. All from VW. I greased the sliders and bushing (inside and outside), back of the disc pads, level and sanded the hub carrier where the pads slide/. They still have an initial seek until I put pressure on them.

I noticed there is not metal shims/hardware, on the calipers/hub carrier. Is that missing? Does the MK4 have caliper hardware (the thin shims) from the factory?

What else could be causing the noise? I did the brake job per the Bentley manual. They didn't mention any sore of breaking process, so I DIDN'T do any breaking. Just normal breaking since I did the brake job 1.5 weeks ago.
 

Mongler98

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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
What pads, what brand.
Brake in is simple, 3 or 4 stops from 30 or 40mph down to 10 4 or 5 times. stock brakes can just do with any initial load brake in. Depending on the pads, depends on the brake in but your not concerned with that aspect other than a generic brake in. You did clean all the grease and everything off the rotors right? If the noise does not go away after a brake in, take the rotors off and the pads, scuff them up with 100 grit sand paper, decrease the rotors and brake them in again. That noise is probably from the rotors being glazed over with out the pads ready for them.

FYI, performance pads brake in
Perform 3-4 medium stops from 45mph. ...
Make 8-10 aggressive stops from 60mph down to 15mph. ...
The brake pads and brake rotors are extremely hot at this point and sitting on one point will imprint the pad material onto the surface unevenly.

Normal pads would be the first step only
drive on the highway right after to let them cool off for 10 minutes. never stop the car unless you MUST while they are hot on the first go at it, you can put high spots on the rotors.
 

VincenzaV

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Apr 25, 2015
Location
New Hampshire
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
"What pads, what brand" -Says above, VW brand...from the dealer.

Yes, cleaned all sides of rotors with brake cleaner, pads too (sprayed on clean new rag, then wiped the pad off quick as not to soak it with brake cleaner.
 

turbobrick240

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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
If it doesn't go away after some break-in, it might just be the friction material in the pads. I know the aftermarket pads I put on my mk6 are more prone to squeal than the OE ones- which were very quiet. They do seem to have improved over the last 50k , or maybe I just don't notice it much any more. Lightly sanding the rotors and pads wouldn't hurt, if it's really annoying.
 

Seatman

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What pads, what brand.
Brake in is simple, 3 or 4 stops from 30 or 40mph down to 10 4 or 5 times. stock brakes can just do with any initial load brake in. Depending on the pads, depends on the brake in but your not concerned with that aspect other than a generic brake in. You did clean all the grease and everything off the rotors right? If the noise does not go away after a brake in, take the rotors off and the pads, scuff them up with 100 grit sand paper, decrease the rotors and brake them in again. That noise is probably from the rotors being glazed over with out the pads ready for them.

FYI, performance pads brake in
Perform 3-4 medium stops from 45mph. ...
Make 8-10 aggressive stops from 60mph down to 15mph. ...
The brake pads and brake rotors are extremely hot at this point and sitting on one point will imprint the pad material onto the surface unevenly.

Normal pads would be the first step only
drive on the highway right after to let them cool off for 10 minutes. never stop the car unless you MUST while they are hot on the first go at it, you can put high spots on the rotors.
That ^^^


I've seen that a few times even with trw parts and that, on one set I had a lot of little black dots of brake material, it causes the the pads to vibrate which causes the squeal.
 

VincenzaV

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Apr 25, 2015
Location
New Hampshire
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
Is there a reason to use sand paper or emery cloth instead? Wouldn't the sand on the sand paper get embedded in the pad some how? Thank you!
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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OE Pads should be either TRW or Textar. And they shouldn't squeal at all. There aren't any shims on the MKIV front brakes, only on the rears.

I wonder if one of the pads isn't seated straight in the caliper/carrier. Did you clean the rotors with brake clean prior to install? If not they'll probably be OK, just might take some more time to settle down.
 

VincenzaV

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2015
Location
New Hampshire
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
OE Pads should be either TRW or Textar. And they shouldn't squeal at all. There aren't any shims on the MKIV front brakes, only on the rears.

I wonder if one of the pads isn't seated straight in the caliper/carrier.
Did you clean the rotors with brake clean prior to install?
-Cleaned thoroughly, and I was careful not to contaminate them while doing the brakes

If not they'll probably be OK, just might take some more time to settle down.
-That might be the case. It's been cold here for FL, and they seem quieter (though maybe because of the temp change. I looked at the rotors through the wheel and the wear pattern looks perfectly even. Though maybe the inside not visible through the wheel isn't.

I did replace the caliper sliders and slider bushings with new and brake greased them up.
 

Mongler98

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Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Is there a reason to use sand paper or emery cloth instead? Wouldn't the sand on the sand paper get embedded in the pad some how? Thank you!
Sand the rotor, don’t touch the pads, if they are melted to the point of over glazed surface, and replace them. There are resins and magic pixy dust that binds them together.

When brakes work properly, the pad material "beds" into the surface of the rotor. Without it, the breaks are ONLY mechanical friction. When the brake pad deposits its love juice on the rotor when it gets hot and ready to mate with the rotor. Now you have not only a friction mechanical action but also a micro chemical reaction. The molecules on the rotor and the pad are now very similar and when hot they try and bond chemically but only at higher heat. This is why it’s important to deglaze your rotors for new pads. Dissimilar materials in new pads.
 

turbobrick240

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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Sand the rotor, don’t touch the pads, if they are melted to the point of over glazed surface, and replace them. There are resins and magic pixy dust that binds them together.

When brakes work properly, the pad material "beds" into the surface of the rotor. Without it, the breaks are ONLY mechanical friction. When the brake pad deposits its love juice on the rotor when it gets hot and ready to mate with the rotor. Now you have not only a friction mechanical action but also a micro chemical reaction. The molecules on the rotor and the pad are now very similar and when hot they try and bond chemically but only at higher heat. This is why it’s important to deglaze your rotors for new pads. Dissimilar materials in new pads.
That's an interesting theory! Here I was thinking brakes worked purely by friction. I agree that deglazing the rotors can help- not sure about the magic pixy dust and love juice though. :D
 

Mongler98

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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Welllllll, I’m getting way to technical. Don’t think of it as a chemical stopping power. On the micro scale, NOTHING is touching anything; it’s all electron atom repulsion. Friction is technically a force trying to take electrons from another atom. Glue is a chemical bond, extreme friction. Velcro is a low friction bond but works by wanting to stick together, this is how the brake pad material works when bedded in. It’s still a friction thing but more on the chemical level as an electron transferring proses vs a chemical bond. In more technical simplicity,
Your brake pads against raw steel rotors are an Ionic repelling frictional proses vs pad material to pad material is a Covalent bond proses.

I have no idea about ceramic carbon fiber new age brake systems, I would assume it’s still a repelling ionic resistance friction but there is no brake fade.

The key is the brake fade, at low speeds, you don’t even need the rotors to be bedded in, cold brakes work as typical friction only, and it’s when they got hot that the friction increases due to this Covalent bond stuff, thus increasing friction.

Sorry if I got too much science’y all up in here.

some sources if you dont get what im saying or dont habeeb it
http://www.chemistryislife.com/t-4


https://www.bendix.com.au/sites/default/files/news-uploads/0708_bendix_general_ct_-_braking_performance_without_the_bra.pdf

I am not very good at describing what i remeber. read this link above. every simple.

"The brakes convert kinetic energy of a moving vehicle into heat. The simplest way for a
brake system to absorb kinetic energy is to break chemical bonds in the rubbing surfaces of
the brake pads and rotor. This is called "abrasive friction", because the pads and rotor act as
an abrasive, pulling each other apart, wearing, and turning the pad into dust.
A more sophisticated way to absorb kinetic energy is "cohesive friction" (or adhesive
friction). Cohesive friction is used in modern non-asbestos organic (NAO) friction materials
such as Bendix General CT.
In order to use cohesive friction, pads deposit a film of friction material on the surface of the
rotor. As the rotor passes between the pads, the film and the pad surface heat up and
become sticky. The pads and friction film bond to each other then break apart, absorbing
energy. They bond and break apart continuously as the rotor passes between the pads.
Cohesive friction relies on the surface properties of the friction material and transfer film,
which change with temperature. A material that is sticky at 30°C might be very slippery at
150°C. This means that an adhesive friction material must use a cocktail of adhesive
ingredients to maintain the "sticky" properties over a range of temperatures.
Used under its design conditions, a cohesive friction material does not wear the rotor at all,
as the rotor iron is protected by the friction film. The pads wear slowly, just enough to keep a
supply of adhesive materials at the surface.
No material loss from the pads and rotors means no brake dust.
Cohesive friction is not possible at extreme temperatures, as the adhesives lose their
effectiveness when they get too hot. The only friction available at high temperatures is
abrasive, resulting in accelerated wear for pads that are not optimised for these conditions.
In frequent or sustained high temperatures, a purpose-designed high-performance friction
material should be used. In order to meet their high temperature operating requirements,
high performance materials must use abrasive friction. More abrasion means more dust. "
 

turbobrick240

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Ok, phew... so brakes do work purely by friction- I thought I was hallucinating for a minute there. Let's not go into regenerative braking. That's way too sciency an' stuff . :)
 

VincenzaV

Veteran Member
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Apr 25, 2015
Location
New Hampshire
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
Interesting stuff Mongler98! It's been 35* in the mornings here in FL, and mid-40's in evening, so I'm going to wait till maybe this weekend if it warms up to check it out and sand (in random patterns) only the rotors.

Do VW factory pads operate like the bend article?

What grit do you recommend for scuffing the rotors?
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
actually, i just was reading up a bit more, you can sand the pads if they have a glazing on them, no issues, my mistake

80 grit would be fine and work fast, 100grit to finish if you have it. your just trying to knock most of that glazing off.

I resurfaced my rotors back in the day with a hand file to take down the high spots and the inside and outside ledges.
 
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turbobrick240

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Nov 18, 2014
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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Lightly sanding the pads & rotors won't hurt, but it doesn't sound like his brakes/rotors have been on long enough to develope glazing. Also, I wouldn't want to use anything coarser than a 200 grit sandpaper. First I'd try to bed them in with some aggressive braking- repeated several times to get some heat into the pads.
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Lightly sanding the pads & rotors won't hurt, but it doesn't sound like his brakes/rotors have been on long enough to develope glazing. Also, I wouldn't want to use anything coarser than a 200 grit sandpaper. First I'd try to bed them in with some aggressive braking- repeated several times to get some heat into the pads.
I agree with the 200 seeing as his are new, good point. A few good heats might solve it, hey, what does it cost, nothing! might as well try it first.
 
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