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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old October 11th, 2017, 13:31   #3346
kjclow
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Her commute is about 20 miles on mostly city streets in fairly heavy traffic. Since she works at a public school, I know there are no charging stations there and am not sure there is anywhere close to the lot for running an extension cord.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 13:31   #3347
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A reminder note left on the house front door might be useful until plugging in becomes routine.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 17:17   #3348
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A reminder note left on the house front door might be useful until plugging in becomes routine.
There's an app for that...
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Old October 12th, 2017, 21:24   #3349
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I follow this thread with interest.

I wonder how differently it would read if it were 1914 and this were a forum board discussing the newfangled motorized, horseless carriages.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 21:39   #3350
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I follow this thread with interest.

I wonder how differently it would read if it were 1914 and this were a forum board discussing the newfangled motorized, horseless carriages.
I'll buy one of them fancy horseless carriages when I can feed 'em from my field and breed 'em in my Barn! 'Till then they don't work for me!
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Old October 13th, 2017, 07:50   #3351
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Don't forget about the free fertilizer that you're giving up with that horseless carriage.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 12:39   #3352
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Does Rush Limbaugh ever do satire? 'Cause this is the dumbest OR funniest thing I've read in a long time.

Love how the energy canard keeps coming up again and again. You need ~10 solar panels to generate enough energy annually to power an EV 15k miles... 10. I have a 1000' sq ft home with 42 on my roof. The typical water heater uses more energy than the typical EV.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 16:08   #3353
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Wow, somebody actually got me to read a Rush piece- well, part of it. I got as far as the electric car forcing meth labs to convert to petroleum refineries. Heavy stuff. I take Limbaugh about as seriously as that Infowars clown. I don't expect anything coherent from either.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 16:31   #3354
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Does Rush Limbaugh ever do satire? 'Cause this is the dumbest OR funniest thing I've read in a long time.

Love how the energy canard keeps coming up again and again. You need ~10 solar panels to generate enough energy annually to power an EV 15k miles... 10. I have a 1000' sq ft home with 42 on my roof. The typical water heater uses more energy than the typical EV.
You are assuming perfect conditions, AGAIN solar is not consistant, we can go two weeks without any sun. Better have some BIG batteries.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 18:40   #3355
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Originally Posted by nwdiver View Post
Does Rush Limbaugh ever do satire? 'Cause this is the dumbest OR funniest thing I've read in a long time.
Love how the energy canard keeps coming up again and again. You need ~10 solar panels to generate enough energy annually to power an EV 15k miles... 10. I have a 1000' sq ft home with 42 on my roof. The typical water heater uses more energy than the typical EV.
10 solar panels of what size???

Back-of-envelope rough-calculation plausibility check follows.

You are implying that a little under 250 sq ft is enough to propel an EV 15,000 miles per year.

I have to do these calculations in metric. 25 square metres to propel an EV 25,000 km per year i.e. about 70 km per day.

A typical EV goes about 6, maybe 7 km per kWh. For simplistic numbers that means 10 kWh per day.

Full sunlight is about 1 kW per square metre. At best, a solar array that is fixed in position will have about 6 useful hours per sunny day. Obviously there is sun for longer than that on average, but near the beginning and end of the day the panel is getting sunlight at an oblique angle and the light is getting through the atmosphere at an angle so its intensity is reduced. So that's 6 kWh per day per square metre ... of incoming sunlight. Good panels can be 15% - 20% efficient, let's assume not state-of-the-art but not terrible. So that's about 1 kWh per day per square metre ... but we haven't allowed for bad weather. That's going to vary but let's say half the days are sunny. So it's 0.5 kWh per day per square metre. 25 square metres is about the right number ... on an annual average.

The difficulty, of course, is that northern folks aren't going to be able to store the summer excess for use in the winter when days are short and weather is often bad (and surfaces are often snow-covered). And with the push to concentrate urban areas, in places like Toronto a large part of the population lives in apartment buildings.

Still ... if Canada were a country having 10 million EVs, the total area of solar collection to power ALL of them would be 250 million square metres ... i.e. 250 square km. That's a lot, but it's a tiny part of the area of the country, and it's much less than the total amount of urbanized area.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 18:53   #3356
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10 solar panels of what size???
300w is pretty standard these days. 3 miles/kWh is about average for an EV. 10 panels would be 3kW. The US average solar insolation is ~4.5 full hours of sun per day. 3kW x 4.5hours/day = 13.5kWh/day. That's 4927.5kWh/yr or enough energy to drive ~14800 miles per year ON AVERAGE.

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You are assuming perfect conditions, AGAIN solar is not consistant, we can go two weeks without any sun. Better have some BIG batteries.
Yeah... some natural gas or coal based generation would sadly have to be used on cloudy and windless days... that's not the point. The point is that adding ~3kW of Solar OR ~1kW of wind per EV would keep emissions from electricity generation from rising due to increased consumption from EVs. Less fossil fuels on sunny/windy days more on cloudy/still days. That's not a lot. The US added 14.7GW of Solar and 8.2GW of wind in 2016 alone. Assuming ~15k miles per year that's enough energy for ~12M EVs. EV sales in 2016 were <160k.

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Old October 17th, 2017, 09:34   #3357
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Wow, somebody actually got me to read a Rush piece- well, part of it. I got as far as the electric car forcing meth labs to convert to petroleum refineries. Heavy stuff. I take Limbaugh about as seriously as that Infowars clown. I don't expect anything coherent from either.
It's a very difficult read. He focuses on some pretty vague math that tries to equate the required energy to power electric vehicles with the amount of energy currently dispensed at filling stations. He neglects to mention that an electric vehicle uses at least 50% less (a very conservative figure) than a gasoline vehicle to go the same distance. He also neglects to mention that a significant portion of charging happens at home.

He raises some valid points about peak and off-peak power production, talking about how a lot of "gas station" charging sessions will happen during the day during peak times. He neglects to mention that solar is rapidly increasing, generating more energy (sometimes a surplus) during the conventional daytime peak period.

So as usual, he uses a couple of seeds of truth to start his argument, but then leaves out a whole lot of information while making his case. He's right that the current grid and current vehicle manufacturing and recharging infrastructures won't support mass-market electric cars. Fortunately, as we all know, these things are improving rapidly. Despite what Rush would have you believe, we can accomplish a lot in 10 - 20 years.
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Old October 17th, 2017, 09:46   #3358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwdiver View Post
300w is pretty standard these days. 3 miles/kWh is about average for an EV. 10 panels would be 3kW. The US average solar insolation is ~4.5 full hours of sun per day. 3kW x 4.5hours/day = 13.5kWh/day. That's 4927.5kWh/yr or enough energy to drive ~14800 miles per year ON AVERAGE.



Yeah... some natural gas or coal based generation would sadly have to be used on cloudy and windless days... that's not the point. The point is that adding ~3kW of Solar OR ~1kW of wind per EV would keep emissions from electricity generation from rising due to increased consumption from EVs. Less fossil fuels on sunny/windy days more on cloudy/still days. That's not a lot. The US added 14.7GW of Solar and 8.2GW of wind in 2016 alone. Assuming ~15k miles per year that's enough energy for ~12M EVs. EV sales in 2016 were <160k.
I ended up using 6 hours per day and 4.0 miles per kWh. Your numbers represent a more realistic average than mine do.

You're also right about the backup power generation on cloudy days. Sure we'll still have to burn fossil fuels if there is no sun and other renewables can't meet demand. The realistic goal is to reduce fossil fuel consumption as much as possible. If you have to fire up a gas plant on a cloudy day to meet demand, you do it until you can figure out another way to power through the lulls.
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Old October 17th, 2017, 13:50   #3359
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Aren't there a lot of solar panel/wind turbine owners buying surplus (used) electric fork-lift batteries for storage devices?
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Old October 17th, 2017, 16:49   #3360
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I ended up using 6 hours per day and 4.0 miles per kWh. Your numbers represent a more realistic average than mine do.
You're also right about the backup power generation on cloudy days. Sure we'll still have to burn fossil fuels if there is no sun and other renewables can't meet demand. The realistic goal is to reduce fossil fuel consumption as much as possible. If you have to fire up a gas plant on a cloudy day to meet demand, you do it until you can figure out another way to power through the lulls.
Fossil fuel generation does not work like that you cannot just turn it on when you need it, it has to be on standby all the time burning fossil fuels, ready to spin up when the load goes up until that changes, there is no way to do away with fossil fuel generation.

The best we can expect from solar and wind for now is fill in generation when that is available. It can be used as available when needed. This is Not how the power plants we have today work. Coal & natural gass steam generation plants Have to be ready to take load at all times.

Steam generation takes hours to build up enough heat and steam to kick a standard generation unit and to action. And as has been said earlier, jet engine generation, which is pretty instant, is not for long term use and cannot be used as such without enormous cost in maintenance being required.
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