German court considers first diesel driving ban on an autobahn - Page 5

turbocharged798 · February 9th, 2019, 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotarykid

Singling out diesels for punishment not ever given to the many gasoline powered offerings caught doing similar or worse over the years sure as h3ll does make this entire thing a political exercise in the US at least!!!

Bingo, there has been a political agenda against diesels in the US and its obvious. The whole trucking industry has basically been destroyed due to ridiculous standards.

A Ford Raptor is legal but my TDI isn't? Something does not add up there.

rotarykid · February 9th, 2019, 12:18

Every last car makes, all of them that sells cars/suv's gasoline-powered in the US has been caught programming specifically to pass the bench test while also programming the car with gearing, mucking with shift points, mucking with fuel limits to make the vehicle more drivable in the real world. They all have been caught exceeding bench limits in real-world driving......

GM Ford & Chrysler have all been caught a few times doing these many different models over the years, were they required to buy back these cars as VWAG has been forced to buy back cars?????.....NO!.....

The worse any of these other manufacturers got for ignoring in law limits on gasoline powered offerings was a slap on the wrist fine, no buy backs, most not even a detune of any sort.....

While diesel's were specifically singled out to make example of to scare all manufacturer into thinking twice or not even trying to meet/pass these stupid not tied to any reality over regulations of vehicle emissions on vehicles not sold here in any numbers since 1983 MY...!!!!!...

If that is not political, maybe I misread the definition of a political action....LOL...

turbobrick240 · February 10th, 2019, 01:04

A few hundred Germans marched in opposition to the diesel ban in Stuttgart last week. Looks like a real sausage fest.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/German diesel bans

https://www.thelocal.de/20190203/yel...diesel-protest

Mongler98 · February 10th, 2019, 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbocharged798

The whole trucking industry has basically been destroyed due to ridiculous standards.

My uncle is a trucker, started with mayflower, now with united.
I talked to him yesterday and brought this up to him. His stance is that its the best thing since sliced bread. His new truck that has MANDATORY upgrades in fuel usage and what not, used 4x less fuel in all operations. He is a firm advocate for train systems. His point to me was that as the trucking industry gets slammed with this diesel gate business, trains will pick up the slack.
In reality, Trucking as ruined its self, the train and local trucking is obvious, but we as consumers must have 2 day prime shipping on all our crap. Remember the days of 6 to 8 weeks for anything you order? Yea.. I do

El Dobro · February 10th, 2019, 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240

A few hundred Germans marched in opposition to the diesel ban in Stuttgart last week. Looks like a real sausage fest.

With sauerkraut?

flee · February 10th, 2019, 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotarykid

Every - (blah blah) - LOL...

RK, I do see the corruption and outright dishonesty of the players in the automotive
emissions business - it's a billion dollar game.
What I don't see is how it is political to enforce standards that were shaped over
decades and multiple administrations. Grabbing the low-hanging fruit first may not
seem fair but nothing gets changed overnight. Where I live the quality of air (and life)
has improved steadily over the years since the first emissions controls were installed.
That's despite a tripling of vehicle-miles driven over the same period. I'll take it, thanks.

tikal · February 10th, 2019, 20:01

I would venture to say that most of of the membership of TDIClub would think that VW got what it deserves (and perhaps for some people a little bit on the lenient side in terms of lack of jail time for higher/highest VW executives).

What probably the same group of folks are saying is that the people/entities that set the pollution standards in the US specifically for gasoline and gasoline-hybrids engines are not being honest and scientific to force the automotive industry to reduce some the following pollutants from gasoline combustion in a manner proportional to their vehicle numbers per capita:

* Particulate matter or PM from the gasoline (yes it is produced from gasoline and it contributes to bad air quality in places like Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego, New York and other large metropolitan areas).

* Volatile organic compounds or VOA (same issue from gasoline passenger vehicles in places like Los Angeles, etc.)

* Other ozone contributing pollutants from gasoline

Yes the cost of a gasoline powered passenger vehicles will go up if we want to reduce substantially PM, VOA and other pollutants from gasoline combustion and clean the air of Los Angeles, Sacramento, New York and other metropolitan areas of the US.

The future will be brighter with emission equipment to meaningfully reduce PM, VOA and other pollutants from gasoline powered passenger vehicles.

Lightflyer1 · February 11th, 2019, 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal

I would venture to say that most of of the membership of TDIClub would think that VW got what it deserves (and perhaps for some people a little bit on the lenient side in terms of lack of jail time for higher/highest VW executives).

I personally think it was all overblown and that they got really screwed over this. Yes they lied and broke some regulations and released some tiny (by comparison) extra pollutants into the air, but in the big scheme of things the issue was tiny. I have seen and read of other lawbreakers committing worse crimes than this getting off way easier. But VW has big money in their pockets and not a US company, so make an example out of them. Even breaking the emissions rules the cars were much cleaner than many, many others out there. It also isn't like they did it all the time. Only under certain circumstances did they over pollute by much. In the big scheme of things much more pollution was caused by scrapping and crushing cars than was generated by the cheat in the first place, in my opinion.

Wasn't there a tuner out there who got caught and prosecuted but they all but reduced the fine to next to nothing due to the company claiming they would be bankrupt. This may be the one:

http://www.thedrive.com/news/23833/e...defeat-devices

I didn't hear all the complaining and whining and gnashing of teeth and money grubbing as in dieselgate. They were probably even worse. Probably a ton of owners even defending them instead of condemning them.

turbobrick240 · February 11th, 2019, 14:38

Sales of diesels continue to plummet in the EU, despite a small uptick of VW euro6 diesel sales in Germany. In Italy diesel has lost the dominant share it held in that market for years.

https://www.fleeteurope.com/diesel-continues-its-downfall-eu-electricity-reaches-new-highs

tikal · February 11th, 2019, 19:00

Unfortunately in the US (I am not sure in Europe) the diesels not sold are mostly substituted by much less efficient gasoline vehicles that offer somewhat comparable torque (maybe). Even the most touted Jetta with the 1.4 TSI engine is averaging around 35 MPG (2017 year, 34.86 to be exact by Fuelly.com, almost 18% less than the 2015 TDI model). Plus with the payback money people are most likely buying more gasoline SUVs which have even worse efficiency than sedans!

As long as the prices of fuel are relatively low in the US, the national fleet MPG average for private passengers vehicles is not going to move much in the + direction no matter how much people in this forum or other forums concerned with transportation efficiency would wish so.

atc98002 · February 11th, 2019, 19:49

I had a rental Jetta in 2017 for about a month, long enough to track the MPG. I was driving in northern VA. My hotel was in Chantilly, and I had to either drive to the Metro station in Vienna or to a facility out in Vint Hill, which was opposite direction of rush hour traffic. Calculated MPG while I had it was about 38 MPG, and that was not all smooth freeway driving. I was very impressed with it. I can't say if it was the 1.4 or 1.8L engine. But coming from my TDI Passat less than a year prior, I could have been satisfied with the engine. Not the car, because it was a typical rental trim. But in an SEL Premium trim I could have lived with it. Almost as torque-y as I remember the Passat, and almost identical MPG that I had been getting here in the Seattle area. Maybe the Passat would have done even better under the same driving conditions. But for a gas engine, I was impressed.

Lightflyer1 · February 12th, 2019, 07:20

Now add on all the emissions equipment that is required for diesels and see how it does.

flee · February 12th, 2019, 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal

Unfortunately in the US (I am not sure in Europe) the diesels not sold are mostly substituted by much less efficient gasoline vehicles that offer somewhat comparable torque (maybe). Even the most touted Jetta with the 1.4 TSI engine is averaging around 35 MPG (2017 year, 34.86 to be exact by Fuelly.com, almost 18% less than the 2015 TDI model). Plus with the payback money people are most likely buying more gasoline SUVs which have even worse efficiency than sedans!
As long as the prices of fuel are relatively low in the US, the national fleet MPG average for private passengers vehicles is not going to move much in the + direction no matter how much people in this forum or other forums concerned with transportation efficiency would wish so.

This 18% 'less' MPG reflects the difference in the energy density of diesel vs gas.
The two engines are roughly equivalent in converting carbon bonds to usable energy.
That doesn't make gasoline engines less efficient, rather it illustrates how efficient
they have now become. Coupled with the realistic pricing of the two fuels, gasoline
can now compete on an equal footing with diesel at least in lightweight passenger cars.
Now if the car companies could just make the fuel tanks a bit bigger...

turbocharged798 · February 12th, 2019, 13:13

Problem is diesel efficiency went down and gas efficiency went up. 10-15 years ago, DI diesels were about 30-50% better in MPG. Huge difference. Now with DI gassers and diesel emission requirements that spread has gone down significantly.

A 2000 Jetta gasser got high 20's for MPG. A 2000 Jetta TDI got low 50's with more power. Think about that.

turbobrick240 · February 12th, 2019, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbocharged798

Problem is diesel efficiency went down and gas efficiency went up. 10-15 years ago, DI diesels were about 30-50% better in MPG. Huge difference. Now with DI gassers and diesel emission requirements that spread has gone down significantly.

A 2000 Jetta gasser got high 20's for MPG. A 2000 Jetta TDI got low 50's with more power. Think about that.

Less power, more torque- in stock format anyhow. Bottom line is all ICE are horribly inefficient, polluting, and use unsustainable fossil fuels. Thank goodness better options are coming to market.