ALH Jumped timing?

Ashby L

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2018
Location
Lancaster, VA
TDI
1999 Jetta MK4
A few months ago i was driving back from work when my Jetta stalled on me when downshifting from 4th to 3rd. I know for a fact it was not user error as i was in the correct gear. The car jolted pretty hard when i downshifted then died. i coasted down to a stop then attempted to restart it. It would crank but no start. The first thing I checked was under the timing belt cover to make sure my belt didn't snap. i was relieved to find that it was still there and in tact from what i could see at the time. Then i thought it was a fuel related issue with the injection pump as i could not see any fuel flow through the clear fuel line when cranking. Today i took the timing cover fully off to further inspect the situation and found the belt was in tact but a single tooth was missing from the belt which i found laying behind the cover. So now it has me thinking it jumped timing. i was wondering if that is possible or common to have happen with only a single tooth missing and do these symptoms resemble that of an engine that has jumped timing? i mean it cranks fine with no odd sounds that i would expect if the timing was off. though the damage could already be done. Would the timing affect the injection pumps ability to deliver fuel? are there any diagnostics that i could run to figure this out? i am new to this engine so i haven't fully grasped the diagnostic process. Thanks!
 

WildChild80

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Nashville, AR
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 2000 Jetta TDI 2000 New Beetle TDI ALL 5 speeds
Pull the valve cover and look at the lifters, if none are smashed or bent up I would lock the cam at zero and look at your crank timing Mark and see if you can get your IP locking pin in...that'll tell you if timing is off

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

WildChild80

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Nashville, AR
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 2000 Jetta TDI 2000 New Beetle TDI ALL 5 speeds
If you ever find yourself in Chesapeake, go to AMS American maintenance supply and replace the 6mm Allen bolts with 10mm hex head bolts...it'll cost you a few bucks and you'll never regret it

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Here are some "extreme" examples of TB incidents and the belt DID NOT jump time.

Below, carnage as a result of the water pump locking up. This is the ALH engine in my Vanagon. That TB and Water Pump had about 50k on them.






Below is the TB from a 1.8T gasser 02 Jetta engine. The guy told me he had the car up to 80 mph coming to my place for a TB job, etc. It was perfectly in time.









...............

So, in my opinion, I find it hard to believe that one tooth off your TB resulted in the belt jumping time. Of course, I am assuming you have verified that the tensioner is set perfect, no rollers locked up, etc.

And, as suggested, pop off the valve cover and inspect the lifters as well as set the cam lock plate in place and verify timing at flywheel hole....... Then, you will know!
 
Last edited:

Ashby L

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2018
Location
Lancaster, VA
TDI
1999 Jetta MK4
yeah i see what your saying about the allen bolts thats good to know. They are a pain. Nearly stripped one of the back ones. ill keep that in mind if I'm in the area. I pulled the valve cover and nothing stood out to me as damaged. lifters looked to be fine. ill try locking the cam at zero tomorrow and see what we got.
 

WildChild80

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Nashville, AR
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 2000 Jetta TDI 2000 New Beetle TDI ALL 5 speeds
Unless your IP bolts came loose...that'd shut her down

Take a wrench and see if the IP moves independent of the pulley

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

Ashby L

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2018
Location
Lancaster, VA
TDI
1999 Jetta MK4
WOW! well that makes me feel better about it. i wasn't sure if a single tooth would do anything. other than the missing tooth my timing belt looks to be in decent shape especially compared to those hahah. thank you for those pics. interesting and entertaining.
 

WildChild80

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Nashville, AR
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 2000 Jetta TDI 2000 New Beetle TDI ALL 5 speeds
yeah i see what your saying about the allen bolts thats good to know. They are a pain. Nearly stripped one of the back ones. ill keep that in mind if I'm in the area. I pulled the valve cover and nothing stood out to me as damaged. lifters looked to be fine. ill try locking the cam at zero tomorrow and see what we got.
Just wait till you pull the harmonic balancer...first time I pulled mine no problems, when I went to put a fluidampr, had to use a drill bit so I could use the only easy out that wasn't lost at the shop

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Understand that the pics Andy shows have the engine lined up at TDC to verify that it has not jumped time. You will need to do that also just to be sure.

And you will need to do a complete timing belt job especially if your belt is missing a tooth. I lost 8” of teeth from my belt last year because of a foreign object getting in the timing belt path. With one tooth loose it’s a big gamble to drive further on the same belt.
 
Last edited:

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
Often (not always, obviously) the belt will fail only if some other component in the belt path fails. Waterpump seizes, idler, or tensioner (weakest item in the system, IMHO) fails and takes out the belt. Many times the belt looks OK and intact only to have sheared the teeth off around the crankshaft sprocket where it's quite hard to see the damage.
With the valvecover off and cam lobes up on each lifter look very carefully for spiderweb type cracks in the exhaust lifters. Any contact from piston to valve should typically show up there.
See what you find and let us know how it goes.
 

Ashby L

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2018
Location
Lancaster, VA
TDI
1999 Jetta MK4
So I am back working on the car and I double checked the lifters nothing there. Wanted to line up all the timing marks so I turned the crank and it turned easily but I noticed the cam and IP gears were not spinning and then the crank came to a hault which I’m assuming was piston to valve contact. Is there something I’m missing here or is this correct. I’m just confused at how I was able to crank it on the side of the road without a bunch of bangs and loud noises if this is the case
 

Ashby L

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2018
Location
Lancaster, VA
TDI
1999 Jetta MK4
Not correct. If you didn't remove the belt the cam and pump should be turning.
I didn’t think so. Just wanted to make sure before I jumped to conclusions. I’m assuming what happened is the same thing Jettawreck said about the teeth coming off around the crank because I can’t see anything out of the ordinary but it is spinning freely so thats pretty depressing
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Interweb guessing you lost more than 1 tooth, that would be unusual. Don't try to fire the engine. If there was no contact with the motor running there should be no damage.
Making those assumptions, I'd replace the timing belt kit and motor on. No ebay, amazon or Prothe please.
 

hollowhead

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Location
cope,sc
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon 5 speed(2)2000 vw beetle tdi automatic
If the ip and cam ain’t turning but the crank is then it’s out of time. Check the tb teeth at the crank real good.remember the crank to cam ratio is 2 to 1.
 
Last edited:

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
Bob -- he cranked after the event, and it happened while the engine was running. Simply replacing the belt and going forward has a high probability of dropping a valve a few thousand miles down the road as contact under load almost-certainly HAS happened.

IMHO he has to pull enough down to get the harmonic balancer off and thus the lower timing belt cover. I believe he's going to find the teeth stripped around the crank sprocket and since it happened with the engine running it's a virtual certainty that valve damage has been taken.

USUALLY you can see spider-web damage on top of the lifters when this occurs with the cam in place -- but not always. The problem is that if you're wrong in an instance like this and a valve stem is compromised there is a high risk of a catastrophic failure of the damaged valve(s) are not replaced.
 
Last edited:

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Yes, I hear you, and we see so many fails.
He said it cranked normal, and he's done a visual with the valve cover off. It seems he got contact when he turned it over by hand.
I'll admit to being a bit of a hack, but from what I read here, I'd just put on a kit and go.
Hard to interweb guess if there was contact running. If there was, it's time for the full molly (head).
 

WildChild80

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Nashville, AR
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 2000 Jetta TDI 2000 New Beetle TDI ALL 5 speeds
I would pull the cam out, and then either use a magnet or a valve lapping suction cup tool and pull the lifters and do a very thorough inspection and while the lifters are out look for and difference in valve stem height suggesting a bent valve.

My basket case beetle sounded like it was making compression on 3 cylinders and when I pulled the valve cover off I saw the problem...the retards had let something move while trying to do a timing belt without locking the IP or cam...but it was a 5 speed car with nice wheels so the POS I traded for it was worth every penny

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
When he pops off the valve train cover, he should be able to see which valve is protruding down into a cylinder stopping the crankshaft from being turned over. Highly likely that it's an exhaust valve.

A few points of thought.

1. How many miles and years since the last TB job.
2. With TB cover off, does the OP see anything that may have caused the teeth off incident. Or, is the belt simply broke.
3. If the belt is broke or teeth stripped off at the crankshaft pulley, it's likely that the damage will be limited to no more than two valves in two different cylinders.
4. No doubt, it is time to remove the head..... the cam can come out later or now, either way, the head has to be removed.
5. With valve cover off and especially the head off, you'll see if there was carnage before the engine stalled ....... such as a lifter crashed, valve dropped, etc.

Lastly, if there was a bet going, I'd bet all my pocket change that there has been valve to piston contact (probably two). I cannot imagine a scenario that would kill the engine and the OP cannot rotate the crankshaft a full rotation and while doing so, the Cam and Injection pump do not turn over......... seems to be a no brainer!
 

Ashby L

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2018
Location
Lancaster, VA
TDI
1999 Jetta MK4
Ill try and take a look at the belt ASAP to see the carnage just to be sure but that has to be what it is. As for the car it only had 176k when it happened. i just bought the car a month before this happened and the previous owner said it had the timing belt changed near the 100k mile mark. As far as how long ago that was I'm not sure. i might pull the cam so i can fully rotate the crank to see what the belt looks on the bottom side unless you guys know of a better way.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Since you know it's not in time, just slip the belt off first.
Car that old was sold with a 60k mile belt.
Perhaps it did contact internals when it stalled.
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
Remove the crank pulley/dampener and the lower TB cover and that provides a good view of the crank sprocket and likely belt fuzzy mess.
Whatever the case, there is over 99% probability that a valve or two has had some relationship with a piston(s), so it's off with its head.
Call Franko6.
Send the head off the Franko6.
Almost every VW (TDI especially) for sale has "always" had the TB/waterpump recently changed, says the seller. Although this one may have been done (or not) on schedule, depending on when/if the first service was done it may have been coming due again. I tend to use an 80k mile interval schedule because I don't put a lot of miles on between several vehicles and the two TDIs.
This is a good example of my always preaching-If you don't have stellar documentation of when, what, who did the job and where the TB and associated parts were sourced, then a newly purchased VW is viewed as past due for TB service. Regardless of the interval unless it's before the first scheduled one (rather unlikely). Sadly, you can't really believe anyone and then there is so much crap for parts out there that those aren't to be trusted and many/most of the people that do the work don't do it right either.
Buy it and do it.
 
Last edited:

Ashby L

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2018
Location
Lancaster, VA
TDI
1999 Jetta MK4
Well said Jettawreck and lesson learned. Just put too much faith in the mans word. Surely won’t happen again. I’ll keep y’all posted on my findings when I get around to it.
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Battle Ground, Wa
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
I was lucky to make it 15,000 past a scheduled TB and lucky to know who had done it.
I was scared to drive once I heard how far over it was.
I paid him to do it so I wouldn't have to worry about it and know that it's done right.

Sent from my Armor_2 using Tapatalk
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
I've seen several go way beyond the change interval.

These were documented without any doubt.

99 NB - 60k mile belt peeled teeth at 105k miles (dealer told buyer the belt was changed at 61k)

03 Jetta - OE belt 149k miles. The original owner told buyer it had never been changed

03 Jetta Wagon - OE belt 119k miles. Original owner said it had never been changed

02 Jetta - 2nd TB was changed by me ... 142k miles later I did the 3rd TB.

01 Jetta - OE belt stripped teeth at 152k miles. Original owner told me it had never been changed.

And, I've changed numerous other TBs that had anywhere from 100k to 110k miles well documented.
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
When I bought the first 2003 TDI it had 167k miles on it. It also had the head already removed. Prior owner(s) drove it until the belt broke, which appeared to be due to a failed tensioner. Everything appeared to be OEM up until the "event", so safe to assume it was never serviced given the lack of other basic maintainence.
The victim I bought it from in that state of carnage had only had it a month before the failure.
Franko6 refurbished the head. I also bought Frank's TB/reassembly kit to put it back together. Everything I needed was in the box.
A few years ago the 2003 was rear ended while parked. The engine now lives in a 2003 1.8T chassis and doing well.
 
Top