Status hearing w/ Judge is F 12/16 - check this link for transcript of meeting

Where is the Kevin Bacon .gif when we need it....

Bosch reportedly agrees to settle for $300M. Is this part of the same MDL as VWAG?

Jimmy Coconuts said:

Bosch reportedly agrees to settle for $300M. Is this part of the same MDL as VWAG?

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So they got out of this relatively unscathed (as compared to VW, that is)! $300M doesn't leave much possibility of additional compensation to consumers, given that there are almost 0.5M of them.

14q7tdi said:

agreed. If the 3.0's are twice the value, it should be $10-20K restitution.

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I agree, we bought ours about 3 months ago so in line with the 2.0, after the eligible sellers pool we get something like 72% of the complete restitution. 1/2 of the restitution for the 3.0's would be the $5-10K I was mentioning. I would guess less of the high dollar buyers would keep track of the pricey cars they bought or sold and this "scandal". I would hope for more than 72% of the restitution after the eligible sellers pool is paid off. I would love $10-20k, I get to use my 1/2 for a dirtbike and the wife is buying furniture, win win for me!!

SAN FRANCISCO —
A federal judge overseeing lawsuits stemming from Volkswagen's emissions cheating scandal has given attorneys for the government, company and car owners another extension to try to reach a deal for the remaining 80,000 polluting vehicles.






U.S. District Court Judge Charles Breyer said Monday that the negotiations were complicated with many details to be worked out. He granted the request for an extension to Tuesday, though he cautioned that would be a "final" deadline.
Breyer had asked the parties to update him on a potential settlement on Monday after twice postponing a hearing Friday to give them more time to negotiate.
The talks aim to hammer out what to do with the 3-liter diesel cars that were programmed to skirt emissions tests.
The German automaker previously reached a deal for 475,000 polluting 2-liter diesel vehicles.

az7000' said:

I agree, we bought ours about 3 months ago so in line with the 2.0, after the eligible sellers pool we get something like 72% of the complete restitution. 1/2 of the restitution for the 3.0's would be the $5-10K I was mentioning. I would guess less of the high dollar buyers would keep track of the pricey cars they bought or sold and this "scandal". I would hope for more than 72% of the restitution after the eligible sellers pool is paid off. I would love $10-20k, I get to use my 1/2 for a dirtbike and the wife is buying furniture, win win for me!!

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It's a complete joke that the settlement has been delayed this many times. I'm guessing VW is holding on strong to not buying the '12+ 3.0's back while everyone else in the court room thinks they should. If they're not going to buy them back, there better be a big restitution # to go along with whatever unknown "fix" we will be forced into. So I think $10-20k is easily doable if they don't have to buy the '12+ back. VW would still be saving money.

az7000' said:

I agree, we bought ours about 3 months ago so in line with the 2.0, after the eligible sellers pool we get something like 72% of the complete restitution. 1/2 of the restitution for the 3.0's would be the $5-10K I was mentioning. I would guess less of the high dollar buyers would keep track of the pricey cars they bought or sold and this "scandal". I would hope for more than 72% of the restitution after the eligible sellers pool is paid off. I would love $10-20k, I get to use my 1/2 for a dirtbike and the wife is buying furniture, win win for me!!

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AZ, since we have no real news to pick through, we get to pick through each other's posts. I didn't follow your math or logic. Care to clarify yours?

FWIW if you bought to arbitrage off 3.0, no criticism from me...the point of the remedy is to get non-complying vehicles either off the road or repaired so they are in compliance. If another owner chooses not to participate and instead sells the vehicle, who cares if the subsequent owner capitalizes on it. The vehicle is bought back or brought into compliance either way, so mission accomplished.

14q7tdi said:

It's a complete joke that the settlement has been delayed this many times. I'm guessing VW is holding on strong to not buying the '12+ 3.0's back while everyone else in the court room thinks they should. If they're not going to buy them back, there better be a big restitution # to go along with whatever unknown "fix" we will be forced into. So I think $10-20k is easily doable if they don't have to buy the '12+ back. VW would still be saving money.

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So write class counsel and urge them to hold strong. Email addresses are in a previous post. As evidenced by how much the public response to the 2.0 settlement was referenced in court hearings and media, the players in this drama care about how this looks to owners and other members of the public.

bird67 said:

So write class counsel and urge them to hold strong. Email addresses are in a previous post. As evidenced by how much the public response to the 2.0 settlement was referenced in court hearings and media, the players in this drama care about how this looks to owners and other members of the public.

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already done

quote: Originally Posted by bird67 Among we posters on the 3.0 claim, I hope you are all contacting the steering committee exhorting them to hold firm on these important points. There must be a buyback option, and it must be based on the pre-September values - because forcing us to rely on VW to come up with a fix that won't tank performance/efficiency/longevity is a sell-out.

You can reach steering committee at info@vwclasscounsel.com :unquote

I just sent this to the class action lawyers:

As an owner of a 2013 TDI 3.0 vehicle I would be opposed to any settlement that treats the 3.0 vehicles differently than the 2.0 vehicles. We have suffered the same loss in values of our vehicles, we have been defrauded to the same extent as to claims of green environmental impact, & we paid the same initial premiums to purchase a diesel over a gasoline engine. Significantly, as a CA resident, our lemon laws have clearly been violated & any settlement should be in accord with the results required of these statutes. If VAG is unwilling to do this, then the matter should go to trial as it relates to the approximate 85,000 3.0 vehicles that remain in this class.

I sent my attorney a reminder of my preference for a buy-back over the weekend. I have seen his name as being in attendance at the court hearings and hope he is in DC today since the judge said that's where all the action is. I'm hoping the agreement is forged and they are just writing it up. If they are still waiting on VW to agree to a buy-back I would expect tomorrow to be another day of no announcement.

I looked at my sticker and the current Kelley value. My 2014 "X" trade-in value is at 52% of it's sticker price after about 30 months. I haven't tried to find the Kelley value at the time of the 2.0 or 3.0 cheat announcement. I really doubt the KBB values today are accurate. Last I could find data there were so few changing hands it hard to determine value. I cannot imagine many outside of this forum having any interest in these cars at this point.

Let's hope tomorrow brings a preliminary agreement!

LowSeas said:

I did so as soon I saw the delay this morning.

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Just received a canned reply stating that they appreciated my input and will pass along my feedback to the rest of the team for consideration.

I guess that is better than no response....

LowSeas said:

Just received a canned reply stating that they appreciated my input and will pass along my feedback to the rest of the team for consideration.
I guess that is better than no response....

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Same here. Sent email to them demanding full buyback and got a canned reply in about 30 seconds.... " Hi Mr. ,

We'd like to thank you for your input. We will pass this along to the rest of the PSC team for consideration.

Best,
Cameron Saunders
Lieff Cabraser Heimann & Bernstein, LLP
VW “Clean Diesel” MDL No. 2672 | Plaintiffs Steering Committee

In spite of the canned reply, I believe email from owners in support of class counsel is important. All parties know the public is watching, and class counsel can say "we are receiving emails from VW owners and the buyback option is very important to them." The canned reply means only that the humans who read them don't have time to acknowledge receipt individually.

On a lighter note, guess which of the lies below was printed in a Bloomberg article today:

1. Hello, I'm with the government. I'm here to help you.
2. Okay, now, I promise this will only sting for a second.
3. I promise you, the check is in the mail
4. VW has a fix for the 3-liter engine that will not affect performance.




If you guessed 4., you're a winner!

"While VW has a fix for the 3-liter engine, it’s been reluctant to offer drivers a full buyback option similar to the deal extended to owners of 480,000 2.0-liter vehicles. Lawyers for the carmaker, consumers and the Justice Department have have assured the court that negotiations are ongoing, but VW may be headed to trial if an agreement isn’t reached."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...parties-in-diesel-dispute-request-continuance

Encouraging

http://fortune.com/2016/12/19/volkswagen-is-close-to-another-billion-dollar-settlement/

It said that VW has agreed to take back and fix at its own cost some 60,000 vehicles from recent years, while buying back 20,000 older vehicles whose problems can’t be solved by some time in the workshop.

$1 Billion / 80,000 vehicles ~ $12,500 each

I guess I am not sure what take back means vs. buying back.

jking11 said:

http://fortune.com/2016/12/19/volkswagen-is-close-to-another-billion-dollar-settlement/

It said that VW has agreed to take back and fix at its own cost some 60,000 vehicles from recent years, while buying back 20,000 older vehicles whose problems can’t be solved by some time in the workshop.

$1 Billion / 80,000 vehicles ~ $12,500 each

I guess I am not sure what take back means vs. buying back.

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"Take-back" is sloppy, non-specific language. Any time you bring a vehicle back to the dealer for warranty work they "take it back" in order to perform the work. The 20,000 buyback/60,000 fix construct has been in the news ever since 11/30. I have suspected this was planted in the news by a very sophisticated VW to manipulate the news coverage and create momentum for VW's negotiating position that it will not offer a buy back option to all 3.0 owners. The media has recycled this construct, over and over, to the point where it becomes "fact" - just as VW wanted. I doubt that "take-back" reflects any change in the VW mantra that it can fix 60,000 3.0s without affecting how the engines perform. Whether it reflects the actual state of negotiations we may (or may not) find out tomorrow.

bird67 said:

"Take-back" is sloppy, non-specific language. Any time you bring a vehicle back to the dealer for warranty work they "take it back" in order to perform the work. The 20,000 buyback/60,000 fix construct has been in the news ever since 11/30. I have suspected this was planted in the news by a very sophisticated VW to manipulate the news coverage and create momentum for VW's negotiating position that it will not offer a buy back option to all 3.0 owners. The media has recycled this construct, over and over, to the point where it becomes "fact" - just as VW wanted. I doubt that "take-back" reflects any change in the VW mantra that it can fix 60,000 3.0s without affecting how the engines perform. Whether it reflects the actual state of negotiations we may (or may not) find out tomorrow.

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There was supposed to be only fix plan for gen 2.2 cars submitted around 10/25, and supposed to be evaluated by EPA/CARB and given a word if the fix plan for those cars were approved or not on 11/03.

No words on that in public. There was no fix plan submitted as of known for gen 1/gen 2.1 cars. Logically, if they're to have a settlement tomorrow, at least gen 1 & gen 2.1 cars would have to have an option for buy back.

By the way, if they decide to go to trial tomorrow, does that mean only gen 2.1/ 2.2 cars would be included for the trial, given that VW is already "willing" to buy back the gen 1 cars? Doesn't sound making much sense, though.

And the Judge said that hopefully they will have a "global" resolution tomorrow.

I would put the probability of no 3.0L settlement (requiring a trial) at less than 5%. VWAG wants this mess behind them. They already cleared the big hurdle. The 3.0L is small potatoes compared to the 2.0L settlement. I just can't see them dragging this out with a trial.

Jimmy Coconuts said:

I would put the probability of no 3.0L settlement (requiring a trial) at less than 5%. VWAG wants this mess behind them. They already cleared the big hurdle. The 3.0L is small potatoes compared to the 2.0L settlement. I just can't see them dragging this out with a trial.

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In regards to number of vehicles yes it is small potatoes but not in the scope of price. These cars will cost 3-4 times as much in a buyback as the 2.0's so I would think it would end up pretty close overall. The porsche cayennes will be brutal. Those things topped $100,000 easy if fully loaded.

TdiSandiego said:

In regards to number of vehicles yes it is small potatoes but not in the scope of price. These cars will cost 3-4 times as much in a buyback as the 2.0's so I would think it would end up pretty close overall. The porsche cayennes will be brutal. Those things topped $100,000 easy if fully loaded.

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If the 3.0L settlement uses the 2.0L as a blueprint, and they have to offer buybacks to the whole class, it's maybe $4B max, and probably closer to $3B. That's not chump change but it's worth 5X more than getting their name dragged through the mud for another 18 months with a trial.

TdiSandiego said:

In regards to number of vehicles yes it is small potatoes but not in the scope of price. These cars will cost 3-4 times as much in a buyback as the 2.0's so I would think it would end up pretty close overall. The porsche cayennes will be brutal. Those things topped $100,000 easy if fully loaded.

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The Cayenne diesels are in 70k+ range(gas versions are higher), A8L TDIs are in 90k-100k range.

Cost per car for most vehicles(barring A7, A8, maybe cayenne)would double if they follow a similar formula as the 2.0Ls.

Jimmy Coconuts said:

I would put the probability of no 3.0L settlement (requiring a trial) at less than 5%. VWAG wants this mess behind them. They already cleared the big hurdle. The 3.0L is small potatoes compared to the 2.0L settlement. I just can't see them dragging this out with a trial.

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I keep hearing that - that it will settle because VW doesn't this to go to trial - and yet, here we are. It takes two sides to play hardball...which means VW has its back up over something significant about which it does not want to cave in. A billion here...a billion there...pretty soon, we're no longer talking about chump change at stake.

bird67 said:

I keep hearing that - that it will settle because VW doesn't this to go to trial - and yet, here we are. It takes two sides to play hardball...which means VW has its back up over something significant about which it does not want to cave in. A billion here...a billion there...pretty soon, we're no longer talking about chump change at stake.

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And VW just settled with our northern neighbors. 1.56 billion.

bird67 said:

I keep hearing that - that it will settle because VW doesn't this to go to trial - and yet, here we are. It takes two sides to play hardball...which means VW has its back up over something significant about which it does not want to cave in. A billion here...a billion there...pretty soon, we're no longer talking about chump change at stake.

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I hear what you're saying bird, really I do.. If I could put this in poker terminogy (indulge me), I have to say VWAG is "pot committed" after putting in the $15B for the 2.0L settlement. They want to clear the books and clear the bad publicity. What's another $5B, or even $10B, when you're already "all-in"? I honestly think by noon today, we will have our answer.

MBQ said:

And VW just settled with our northern cousins - 1.56 billion.

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FTFY, MBQ. They settled on the 2.0s, not the 3.0s, related but not relevant. Also, settlements with consumers in Canada, let alone the EU and elsewhere, are irrelevant to settlements in the United States. Our consumer protection laws - class actions and such - are mocked, vilified, and targeted for elimination by the mega corporations that form such groups as the U.S. Chamber of Commerce who hate being held accountable when they act on their worst instincts. But the comparisons of outcomes to consumers among the different global TDI markets affected by Dieselgate display, in the starkest possible terms, why such consumer protection laws are needed to reign in corporate malfeasance. EU TDI consumers are left whining about unfairness while American TDI consumers are protected by laws that allow us to band together, present a unified case, and demand fair compensation or take VW to court. VW is not paying American consumers differently than everyone else because we deserve it more. It is paying us differently because our laws protect us differently. The differences are stark. God bless America.

I hear what you're saying bird, really I do.. If I could put this in poker terminogy (indulge me), I have to say VWAG is "pot committed" after putting in the $15B for the 2.0L settlement. They want to clear the books and clear the bad publicity. What's another $5B, or even $10B, when you're already "all-in"? I honestly think by noon today, we will have our answer.

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I can see that analogy. I can also see, and fear, that VW is led by master poker players who, even after being "pot committed", are betting/bluffing that class counsel will accept 80% of full compensation now rather than go to trial and risk getting 50% from Judge Breyer. Remember, this is set up to be a bench trial before Breyer, who knows the negotiations intimately. A bench trial weakens the likelihood of a verdict that would punish VW with money that differs markedly from what is already on the table. This lessens VW's fear of trial and puts pressure on class counsel to take "the bird in hand."
I agree, it's unlikely that today's announcement will be kicking the can down the road yet again. We ought to have something substantive to discuss by day's end.

bird67 said:

FTFY, MBQ. They settled on the 2.0s, not the 3.0s, related but not relevant.

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I was referring to your saying "a billion here, a billion there".

The heavy hammer of the US consumer protection law also reflects the strength of uncle sam in the global power order.

It's puzzling to me that the resolution was delayed so many times. They better have an answer for us this afternoon!

What's the likelihood we will actually see details from the negotiations today? ie Model Year compensation ranges and restitution amounts.

Also, any takers on that '13-15 will see significant restitution & modification amounts only? The buyback would be so expensive, when most owners of these newer vehicles would most likely accept a $20k check and designated fix. I am having trouble believing their going to offer buybacks in amounts > $60k when they could get off on substantially less cost.

I would not think they would already have out amounts or ranges today.

Everyone ready?

Patrick's feed is up!