Audi 90 quattro TDI: gearing questions
- Thread starter vtpsd
- Start date
Yes, the tune is very smokey. Currently its not scaled for boost at all, so 100% throttle = 100% fuel. Trying to see exactly how the turbo spools, and then have the tune adjusted to dial back the fuel until boost is up.
I am likely going to switch to an 11mm pump, add a cam and valve springs before getting the tune finalized. I have pretty high EGT's at the top, and looks like I need to take some measures to cool that down.
I am likely going to switch to an 11mm pump, add a cam and valve springs before getting the tune finalized. I have pretty high EGT's at the top, and looks like I need to take some measures to cool that down.
project update, about 5000 miles on the swap, two near 1000 mile roadtrips under the belt and a lot of daily driving. The car is awesome. 46-49mpg without the engine belly pan installed and driven pretty hard. Over a mountain pass every single day.
It runs a bit warm on a hard and long climb, I have a bunch of plans for the car that will need to be addressed before mid-October when I plan to drive to California and back. I think that many of these items will help lower EGT's, coolant temps and oil temps. The car starts to build all three when driven very hard up a twisty pass when it is over 80 degrees out. It never over heats, but temps start climbing and I have plans to address all of these.
-240mm DMF and Sachs race clutch
-euro snub nosed starter and spacer plate
-build snub mount
-colt stage 3 cam (have)
-dual valve springs and new lifters (have)
-lift pump (have)
-some more paint work on the passenger side fender (drive side done and looking good)
-install external oil cooler in conjunction with factory oil to water heat exchanger.
Log many more miles and maybe get it on a dyno if its convenient.
I will also plan to install an 11mm pump once those other items are done.
Once I have the hardware of the car where I want it, I plan to take the car to someone who can actually tune it in person with all its optimized hardware.
It runs a bit warm on a hard and long climb, I have a bunch of plans for the car that will need to be addressed before mid-October when I plan to drive to California and back. I think that many of these items will help lower EGT's, coolant temps and oil temps. The car starts to build all three when driven very hard up a twisty pass when it is over 80 degrees out. It never over heats, but temps start climbing and I have plans to address all of these.
-240mm DMF and Sachs race clutch
-euro snub nosed starter and spacer plate
-build snub mount
-colt stage 3 cam (have)
-dual valve springs and new lifters (have)
-lift pump (have)
-some more paint work on the passenger side fender (drive side done and looking good)
-install external oil cooler in conjunction with factory oil to water heat exchanger.
Log many more miles and maybe get it on a dyno if its convenient.
I will also plan to install an 11mm pump once those other items are done.
Once I have the hardware of the car where I want it, I plan to take the car to someone who can actually tune it in person with all its optimized hardware.
so awesome. The mileage, considering all wheel drive, is amazing. want.
what are you seeing for egts on hard pulls or climbs? I fought the egt issues forever and keep them mostly in check with water meth...but at some races I still get higher egts than I'd like. I still run junk turbo, so hopefully a future holset would help lower those a bit too.
any plans for wolfsgart? Maybe I can see this there. Hope to put my car back together by then and make it up on sunday
what are you seeing for egts on hard pulls or climbs? I fought the egt issues forever and keep them mostly in check with water meth...but at some races I still get higher egts than I'd like. I still run junk turbo, so hopefully a future holset would help lower those a bit too.
any plans for wolfsgart? Maybe I can see this there. Hope to put my car back together by then and make it up on sunday
nitec
Vendor
interested as well...Volksfest is at the same time but I could try to make it down to VT with the TDi as well...I won't be able to make TDiFest - it's too far
The mileage must be the larger, less restrictive turbo and the ultra high 6th gear. EGT's are a problem, I can see 1700 beating it hard over the app gap.I try to keep it under 1600, which means pedaling back when I want to stay in it. Lame.
I actually have the engine out right now and hope to help resolve the high EGT's.
My latest round of improvements are this
-240mm DMF
-ported head (just finished yesterday)
-colt stage 3 cam
-dual valve springs
-lift pump
-external oil cooler
I also found the crank sprocket to have some play, and likely causing strange timing issues. I am optimistic that these improvements will help my EGT's quite a lot, and hopefully gain some power too. I didn't go too crazy on the porting, but I was able to open the exhaust up quite a bit, and smooth out the abrupt transition from the bowl to the runners. I didnt do a ton on the intakes, just cleaned it up mostly. I didnt want to mess up the swirl.
I am planning on Wolfsgart, but not sure I'll have it running again by then. I have a family vacation and a bunch of other stuff between now and then, but I am planning on having it running by then.
Been driving the car a bunch this summer. The last round of updates went well. She is ripping strong, but needed some more refinement before my epic 7000 mile roadtrip that is coming in a couple weeks.
There is a gathering of classic audis in Vegas every year, and I plan on attending. This round I have done a ton of little and annoying tasks that have taken me about 3 weeks to work through. The car is looking like a nicely polished turd, no more rust spots, trim all in place, body panel seams all reasonably correct.
-Added lift pump, running off factory fuel pump relay, using a second relay that grounds the signal pin and is triggered off the fuel stop solenoid. This works perfect, it primes the pump for 5 seconds or so and then runs permanently when crank motion is sensed.
-replaced driver side door lock cylinder, swapped tumblers into new OEM lock assembly so the ignition key still opens the drivers door. I also had to rewire the door harness as the power lock trigger wire was broken in the drivers door accordion
-fix intermediate shaft oil leak
-change trans fluid
-pull out dents in rocker panel and pinch welds and recoat the rocker panels
-remove passenger fender, repaint lower half (under mid trim and down)
-replace idler pulley on serp belt
-ordered spare belts for trip
-replace rear diff, mine had a noisy bearing on the driver side
-replace snub mount rubber, TDI ate the old one
-run some diesel purge through the pump
-change fuel filter
-repaint valve cover (very important)
-fix intermittent wipers, not sure exactly whats wrong here. Probably just nasty dried grease in the contacts of the motor assembly, or maybe the relay.
-replaced the small odometer gear, had the typical chipped tooth.
I also bought an 11mm fuel pump from an automatic ALH TDI, which I think will be an excellent upgrade to this engine, but that will not be installed before the trip.
I am AMPED about driving across country in an old audi, its literally been a dream for as long as I’ve been into these cars. Hope she makes it!
Approximate map of trip. I may return a little more south and cruise up through the mountains in West Virginia.
Planning on spending a couple days in Bryce Canyon Hiking on the way out and A couple in Zion on the way back.
There is a gathering of classic audis in Vegas every year, and I plan on attending. This round I have done a ton of little and annoying tasks that have taken me about 3 weeks to work through. The car is looking like a nicely polished turd, no more rust spots, trim all in place, body panel seams all reasonably correct.
-Added lift pump, running off factory fuel pump relay, using a second relay that grounds the signal pin and is triggered off the fuel stop solenoid. This works perfect, it primes the pump for 5 seconds or so and then runs permanently when crank motion is sensed.
-replaced driver side door lock cylinder, swapped tumblers into new OEM lock assembly so the ignition key still opens the drivers door. I also had to rewire the door harness as the power lock trigger wire was broken in the drivers door accordion
-fix intermediate shaft oil leak
-change trans fluid
-pull out dents in rocker panel and pinch welds and recoat the rocker panels
-remove passenger fender, repaint lower half (under mid trim and down)
-replace idler pulley on serp belt
-ordered spare belts for trip
-replace rear diff, mine had a noisy bearing on the driver side
-replace snub mount rubber, TDI ate the old one
-run some diesel purge through the pump
-change fuel filter
-repaint valve cover (very important)
-fix intermittent wipers, not sure exactly whats wrong here. Probably just nasty dried grease in the contacts of the motor assembly, or maybe the relay.
-replaced the small odometer gear, had the typical chipped tooth.
I also bought an 11mm fuel pump from an automatic ALH TDI, which I think will be an excellent upgrade to this engine, but that will not be installed before the trip.
I am AMPED about driving across country in an old audi, its literally been a dream for as long as I’ve been into these cars. Hope she makes it!
Approximate map of trip. I may return a little more south and cruise up through the mountains in West Virginia.
Planning on spending a couple days in Bryce Canyon Hiking on the way out and A couple in Zion on the way back.
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nitec
Vendor
good luck on the trip Dana! sounds like a blast...were you able to tackle the cam and clutch issues? is the car still smoking heavy or is it manageable?
Clutch and cam are in, head is ported. Very happy with the new clutch and flywheel. The car is basically smoke free when the turbo is spooled and before the 10mm runs out of steam. Once it gets above 3500-4000 rpms the smoke comes back as timing cannot keep up. I think the lift pump will help, but 11mm pump will be sweet too.
Overall the EGT's dropped all over the rev band, and I am happy with that.
I'm bringing a full size spare, tire repair plugs, mini compressor, basic set of mechanical tools, alternator, belts, fuses, some wire and a multimeter, but I am confident I won't need any of it
Here's the thing - in my long distance trips (north-south, Toronto to Miami) if I bring spare parts and tools, I don't need them. If I risk it and bring nothing, something will break.
Last trip, I brought tools, and needed them to replace a driveshaft after the inner boot ripped and leaked out all the grease in Sarasota.
nitec
Vendor
come on now - you`ll lose 1mpg because of the extra stuff in the trunk...no big deal - you`ll make it there and back on 1 tank anyways 
would you mind doing some boost logs and throwing them up here? I'd like to see the difference with my 221...I've got a 211 ready to go in the B7 so I want to make sure it's worth it...
btw - check this out...it aught to make turbo integration a bit easier no?
would you mind doing some boost logs and throwing them up here? I'd like to see the difference with my 221...I've got a 211 ready to go in the B7 so I want to make sure it's worth it...
btw - check this out...it aught to make turbo integration a bit easier no?
That looks like a good manifold, seems like that would also make fitment on a FWD car with holset easier too...maybe my ALH wagon needs one.
The manifold I have actually fits the audi very well, turbo placement is just about perfect.
I Don't think I can really do a boost log since I am not scaling the fuel on boost at all, the boost output just reads a constant value at all times with my tuned chip. I Could do it with the stock chips, but spool would not be accurately represented.
The manifold I have actually fits the audi very well, turbo placement is just about perfect.
I Don't think I can really do a boost log since I am not scaling the fuel on boost at all, the boost output just reads a constant value at all times with my tuned chip. I Could do it with the stock chips, but spool would not be accurately represented.
nitec
Vendor
how about a boost gauge video of a WOT pull? that could work too...should be relatively easy to see where you get to 32psi or whatever you've dialed it in at...
as for your chip - is there no way to adjust the fuel on the boost? is that a limitation of the ECU or? technically you should be able to run that engine with no ECU at all correct? full mechanical?
as for your chip - is there no way to adjust the fuel on the boost? is that a limitation of the ECU or? technically you should be able to run that engine with no ECU at all correct? full mechanical?
Yes I can probably video the boost gauge, car should be back to daily driving next week.
It is very possible to adjust fuel based on boost, Martin, who wrote the chip set the first tune up this way to see exactly when the turbo spools, then the plan is to write a new chip with the fuel scaled based on where the turbo spools. I have changed so many things I dont want to bother retuning it until I get it where I want it. Once I get the 11mm pump on there, I think I am done with the physical changes.
It is very possible to adjust fuel based on boost, Martin, who wrote the chip set the first tune up this way to see exactly when the turbo spools, then the plan is to write a new chip with the fuel scaled based on where the turbo spools. I have changed so many things I dont want to bother retuning it until I get it where I want it. Once I get the 11mm pump on there, I think I am done with the physical changes.
kooyajerms
grocery getter
- Joined
- May 5, 2004
- Location
- Pomona, Southern California
- TDI
- 97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
You better win some type of damn award for this one!
Enjoy the trip out this way.
Enjoy the trip out this way.
trip went well, 45mpg average. Traveled about 80-90mph the whole way. 7000 miles total. Saw some amazing country, hiked in Bryce Canyon and Zion, saw las vegas, rode in an 800hp audi 90, and saw many other amazing classic audis, didnt kill or get killed by girlfriend. All in all, successful.
Only issue I had was a bad leak in the vacuum brake booster which seems to have forced a LOT of oil through the crankcase vent and into the intercooler. Had to drain it once in Utah, and its full of oil again now that I am home. Either that or the turbo is dead, or rings are dead. Car still running perfectly, so I think it is ok.
Have not processed or uploaded pictures yet, trying to play catch up at home now. Here are a couple from the playtime with all the other classic Audis in Vegas.
here are some more photos for those with facebook, taken by another old audi nerd.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/VexArtMedia/photos/?tab=album&album_id=588918157961869
Only issue I had was a bad leak in the vacuum brake booster which seems to have forced a LOT of oil through the crankcase vent and into the intercooler. Had to drain it once in Utah, and its full of oil again now that I am home. Either that or the turbo is dead, or rings are dead. Car still running perfectly, so I think it is ok.
Have not processed or uploaded pictures yet, trying to play catch up at home now. Here are a couple from the playtime with all the other classic Audis in Vegas.
here are some more photos for those with facebook, taken by another old audi nerd.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/VexArtMedia/photos/?tab=album&album_id=588918157961869
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awesome, sounds like a great trip. Glad to hear you made it out and back with little issues
maybe try a catch can and see if you're still getting oil in the ic? I doubt rings or turbo if you're still running well. I'd also be awful surprised to hear a turbo failed already
maybe try a catch can and see if you're still getting oil in the ic? I doubt rings or turbo if you're still running well. I'd also be awful surprised to hear a turbo failed already
I had a chance to look it over last night. The intercooler had A TON of oil in it, and I used about a quart in the last 200 miles of the trip!!!
I drained all the oil out of the piping and checked the compression. 485-495 across the board. Exactly what it always has been.
Then I started it up and ran it with the breather puck open and the turbo totally disconnected from charge piping. I only got a couple drops of oil from the turbo sitting there running at 3000 RPMS for 20 minutes. I think that oil was residual from the turbo inlet coupler and the boost control hoses. My turbo drain line isn't great, so I thought that this could be to blame for a turbo leaking oil.
Conclusion: engine is likely fine, and turbo seems fine. No shaft play, no apparent oil passage that could account for the horrific oil usage.
Then I disconnected the vacuum system, and totally plugged up the pump. I get very little air movement and a tiny bit of oil vapor from the vent....with the pump open to atmosphere I get quite a bit of air from the vent and oil eventually starts dribbling out of the CCV puck outlet. This is with no boost and no load on the engine, so not a perfect test, but its enough for me to consider the vac leak is causing my issue.
Its hard to image, but I think my massive vacuum leak at the brake booster is to blame here. Additionally, I noticed there was some suction at the connection to my airbox on the CCV vent line I made. It seems like my airbox might actually be too restrictive for the TDI. This sucks, since having a factory airbox is really nice, but maybe the box designed for a 2.3 liter N/A gasser is too small?
I think I will rework it using a quality open cone filter and build a more open box that will utilized the factory cold air scoop and see if I can reduce that restriction. Plus more turbo noise=good?
I am also going to add a Mann Provent 200 catch can and drain it back into the hole in the block where the factory turbo drained into.
I drained all the oil out of the piping and checked the compression. 485-495 across the board. Exactly what it always has been.
Then I started it up and ran it with the breather puck open and the turbo totally disconnected from charge piping. I only got a couple drops of oil from the turbo sitting there running at 3000 RPMS for 20 minutes. I think that oil was residual from the turbo inlet coupler and the boost control hoses. My turbo drain line isn't great, so I thought that this could be to blame for a turbo leaking oil.
Conclusion: engine is likely fine, and turbo seems fine. No shaft play, no apparent oil passage that could account for the horrific oil usage.
Then I disconnected the vacuum system, and totally plugged up the pump. I get very little air movement and a tiny bit of oil vapor from the vent....with the pump open to atmosphere I get quite a bit of air from the vent and oil eventually starts dribbling out of the CCV puck outlet. This is with no boost and no load on the engine, so not a perfect test, but its enough for me to consider the vac leak is causing my issue.
Its hard to image, but I think my massive vacuum leak at the brake booster is to blame here. Additionally, I noticed there was some suction at the connection to my airbox on the CCV vent line I made. It seems like my airbox might actually be too restrictive for the TDI. This sucks, since having a factory airbox is really nice, but maybe the box designed for a 2.3 liter N/A gasser is too small?
I think I will rework it using a quality open cone filter and build a more open box that will utilized the factory cold air scoop and see if I can reduce that restriction. Plus more turbo noise=good?
I am also going to add a Mann Provent 200 catch can and drain it back into the hole in the block where the factory turbo drained into.
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Finally got the car back in action, and switched to winter mode. Switched out the springs for a new set of H&R springs. Built a new air intake setup. Added a Mann Provent 200 catch can. Added a low point 1/4 turn ball valve in the lower boost pipe to test if any oil is collecting in there and drain as required.
Drove it around on the snowy dirt roads last night, i forgot how much fun these cars are in the winter. The diesel requires some clutch abuse to keep it sideways because the power band is pretty narrow, but it sure is fun.
Looks like my vacuum leak at my brake booster was the cause of all my oil issues. Crazy. I am getting zero oil out of the vent with the vac system capped off, and zero oil in the intercooler after a 30 mile beat.
Here are some crappy pics of the intake I came up with. This box still uses the factory air ducting that brings air in from around the headlight, so it shouldn't suck only hot air. This little holset sounds sweet too, its pretty funnny to be hooning around in the snow with turbo spool noises, turbo stall noises and black smoke everywhere.
Drove it around on the snowy dirt roads last night, i forgot how much fun these cars are in the winter. The diesel requires some clutch abuse to keep it sideways because the power band is pretty narrow, but it sure is fun.
Looks like my vacuum leak at my brake booster was the cause of all my oil issues. Crazy. I am getting zero oil out of the vent with the vac system capped off, and zero oil in the intercooler after a 30 mile beat.
Here are some crappy pics of the intake I came up with. This box still uses the factory air ducting that brings air in from around the headlight, so it shouldn't suck only hot air. This little holset sounds sweet too, its pretty funnny to be hooning around in the snow with turbo spool noises, turbo stall noises and black smoke everywhere.
winter mode fully engaged. She started right up at -15F this morning. No problem. Heater fan is howling, so that needs replacement.
Damn I love an old quattro in the snow. Seat heaters on level 6, heat cranking and sideways all the way to work. So fun.
The car looks a little different than it did just a couple months ago in Vegas!
Damn I love an old quattro in the snow. Seat heaters on level 6, heat cranking and sideways all the way to work. So fun.
The car looks a little different than it did just a couple months ago in Vegas!
sweet, i think you will like it. I now have boost starting at 1200-1300 RPM, 5 psi by 1500 and full boost by 2500. Not sure if this is because of my new intake setup or the cold weather or both.
Either way, I think you will be pleased. Looking forward to your progress too.
