02J EGR Manual transmission 3rd/4th gear issue

Enabled · Jul 10, 2014

Car Background Info:

2003 Jetta TDI Manual with 02J EGR transmission,
new upgraded G60 single mass flywheel and upgraded clutch (10,000 miles ago).
Running a .681 5th gear (with Pennzoil synchromesh oil done at swap),
and PP520 nozzles.
Some very mild 3rd gear grind noticed on downshifts (4th to 3rd) since I bought the car.

So 2 weeks ago my 3rd gear got progressively worse to go into gear. It would take some playing around to get it to go in, with slight grinding. It got so bad, that I started avoiding 3rd to prevent damage. I went and ordered new syncros (3rd and 4th: PN 02A311269E to fit the original 02A syncro hub).
I was planning to take the transmission off AGAIN, after the recent clutch/flywheel update. What a pain.

Anyways, a few days later 4th gear completely stopped engaging, so I figured it may be worse than I thought, and waited to the syncros to arrive. Put the car on the lift...
I took out the transmission, and opened it up.

The syncros are not the issue, as they are perfect, and within good measurements (1.3 mm space). Sent those back for refund.

To my surprise, the shift segments for 3rd and 4th (pegs on shift fork that move hub up or down) were ground down to almost non existent. I will take a picture of it soon. It's like they were milled down completely by the hub. (segments #9 in below pic)

(#2 in this picture)

However, the hub, including the channel, gears, and syncros were largely undamaged.

Only my reverse gear was found to have been chipped and damaged, so I ordered new shift segments with clips, as well as a reverse gear.

Here are pictures of those as well for curious people.

Now, I will have my transmission back together with new parts this weekend without problems...

The big question that remains:

Why and how did this happen?

I had the proper amount of fluid in the transmission from the gear swap.
I have properly adjusted the shifter at the time of the clutch/flywheel swap, just ~10,000 miles ago.

Manufacturing flaw? Bad heat treat?

Has anyone else seen this before?

These strange problems are making me view VW more and more negatively each day. My 3 BMW's haven't given me this kind of strange problems (including a few others on this VW) combined. Rant over.

I'm very mechanically inclined, and have access to pretty much any tool, and specialized equipment, including a whole machine shop to use.

I would like to understand why.

I lived 6 years in Europe for college, and seeing VW's popularity (and reliability) there, made me consider one. I'm not at the point of regretting, but it's pushing my patience.

stickman007 · Jul 10, 2014

Possible that tension is placed on shifter i.e. leaving your hand hanging on the gear lever? Misaligned shifter cables?

nkgagne · Jul 10, 2014

Even though the synchro measured fine, it's how they grip the gear that matters, which can be a difference of a few .001 of an inch. Since you went to all the trouble to tear the transmission apart and you have grinding issues w/ 3/4, I think I'd still have replaced the syncro anyway. As much as I hate synchros in general, new ones are better than (even slightly) worn ones.

(It's seriously time for OE's to start offering dog boxes. If they can set an ECU to manipulate revs and manage driveline torque during manual shifting, à la Corvette/370z/M3, suddenly there's no need for syncros or the clutch disengagement every shift, as long as you don't mind the odd clunk.)

Enabled · Jul 10, 2014

Well I did think about possible tension on the shifter.

By hand, no; my wife and I both know manual very well. As well as rev matching and all. My wife is even learning heel-toe downshifting (very difficult with the VW pedals though, in comparison to BMW). 3 of my 4 cars are manual.

Shifter alignment... unlikely but can be considered. I re-aligned the shifter to the instructions and double checked it before. Cannot possibly be ruled out.

I've also had this car for almost 1 year, so who knows what the previous owner did.

As far as the syncros go:

VW workshop manuals http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswa...tion/dismantling_and_assembling_output_shaft/

say that a new syncro dimension for 3rd and 4th is from 1.0mm to 1.7mm. Worn limit is 0.5mm.

Mine measured at 0.051" +- 0.002 depending on gear. Equates to about 1.3mm.

I'm not going to throw any more money on those syncros since they look good. First and second gear syncro sets are easily $200+, 3rd and 4th were $120 for both. Then there's the part about maybe having to replace hubs, because of the new update, superseeding to 02J part numbers.

I feel very safe to say that the 3rd gear grind on downshifts was due to the pins not able to push the hub far enough.

vwdieseling · Jul 10, 2014

Enabled said:
Car Background Info:

2003 Jetta TDI Manual with 02J EGR transmission,

new upgraded G60 single mass flywheel and upgraded clutch (10,000 miles ago).

Running a .681 5th gear (with Pennzoil synchromesh oil done at swap),

and PP520 nozzles.

Some very mild 3rd gear grind noticed on upshifts (4th to 3rd) since I bought the car.

So 2 weeks ago my 3rd gear got progressively worse to go into gear. It would take some playing around to get it to go in, with slight grinding. It got so bad, that I started avoiding 3rd to prevent damage. I went and ordered new syncros (3rd and 4th: PN 02A311269E to fit the original 02A syncro hub).
I was planning to take the transmission off AGAIN, after the recent clutch/flywheel update. What a pain.

Anyways, a few days later 4th gear completely stopped engaging, so I figured it may be worse than I thought, and waited to the syncros to arrive. Put the car on the lift...
I took out the transmission, and opened it up.

The syncros are not the issue, as they are perfect, and within good measurements (1.3 mm space). Sent those back for refund.

To my surprise, the shift segments for 3rd and 4th (pegs on shift fork that move hub up or down) were ground down to almost non existent. I will take a picture of it soon. It's like they were milled down completely by the hub. (segments #9 in below pic)

(#2 in this picture)

However, the hub, including the channel, gears, and syncros were largely undamaged.

Only my reverse gear was found to have been chipped and damaged, so I ordered new shift segments with clips, as well as a reverse gear.

Here are pictures of those as well for curious people.

Now, I will have my transmission back together with new parts this weekend without problems...

The big question that remains:

Why and how did this happen?

I had the proper amount of fluid in the transmission from the gear swap.
I have properly adjusted the shifter at the time of the clutch/flywheel swap, just ~10,000 miles ago.

Manufacturing flaw? Bad heat treat?

Has anyone else seen this before?

These strange problems are making me view VW more and more negatively each day. My 3 BMW's haven't given me this kind of strange problems (including a few others on this VW) combined. Rant over.

I'm very mechanically inclined, and have access to pretty much any tool, and specialized equipment, including a whole machine shop to use.

I would like to understand why.

I lived 6 years in Europe for college, and seeing VW's popularity (and reliability) there, made me consider one. I'm not at the point of regretting, but it's pushing my patience.

Good pics. I think there are some good and some bad transmissions that are manufactured. Perhaps a Friday built transmission with an impending divorce involved as far as the castings. I work in manufacturing and even with strict quality controls something will deviate from the processes.

I'm going to print out your pics, if you don't mind and give them to the one individual. I think you hit the problem on the head.

Enabled · Jul 10, 2014

By the way, if you can change your clutch, You can open your transmission. Just FYI.

It is not a magical wonder of mechanical amazement, except for the fact that someone had to come up with this design to make it.

vwdieseling · Jul 10, 2014

Enabled said:
Well I did think about possible tension on the shifter.

By hand, no; my wife and I both know manual very well. As well as rev matching and all. My wife is even learning heel-toe downshifting (very difficult with the VW pedals though, in comparison to BMW). 3 of my 4 cars are manual.

Shifter alignment... unlikely but can be considered. I re-aligned the shifter to the instructions and double checked it before. Cannot possibly be ruled out.

I've also had this car for almost 1 year, so who knows what the previous owner did.

As far as the syncros go:

VW workshop manuals http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswa...tion/dismantling_and_assembling_output_shaft/

say that a new syncro dimension for 3rd and 4th is from 1.0mm to 1.7mm. Worn limit is 0.5mm.

Mine measured at 0.051" +- 0.002 depending on gear. Equates to about 1.3mm.

I'm not going to throw any more money on those syncros since they look good. First and second gear syncro sets are easily $200+, 3rd and 4th were $120 for both. Then there's the part about maybe having to replace hubs, because of the new update, superseeding to 02J part numbers.

I feel very safe to say that the 3rd gear grind on downshifts was due to the pins not able to push the hub far enough.

Yes, I'd agree the external gear was probably not totally meshing with the internal gear on the main shaft. The problems with the two in my area involved fourth gear downshifts and than the internals coming out the transmission casings. I haven't seen the transmissions, but heard the complaints. I'm thinking you solved the problem with what was possibly going on with these two. Possible shifter cable alignment.

I found that in all my VW O2J's the shifter alignment is a little off. Where on my older VW EE five speed manuals in my early Rabbits didn't have that problem, I believe because the shifter linkage is completely different. Occasionally the bushings on the shifter rods needed changed. I had over 500,000 miles on my Rabbit's five speed. Clutches were the primary problem, I was hard on them. Trying to push a naturally aspirated 1.6 diesel, I really beat on the clutch.

Enabled · Jul 10, 2014

nkgagne said:
I think I'd still have replaced the syncro anyway.

I seriously did consider it.

But then I thought: where to stop? Replace good syncros, and not replace bearings? Why not add some lower ratio gears in there from the BEW Jetta? There is even a set on ebay right now, both shafts for ~$150. Well, now that I did all that... why not a LOVELY limited slip differential?

And so I would be out of $2000.

I'll just save that money. Buy another fun toy if I really want to throw money.

vwdieseling · Jul 10, 2014

nkgagne said:
Even though the synchro measured fine, it's how they grip the gear that matters, which can be a difference of a few .001 of an inch. Since you went to all the trouble to tear the transmission apart and you have grinding issues w/ 3/4, I think I'd still have replaced the syncro anyway. As much as I hate synchros in general, new ones are better than (even slightly) worn ones.

(It's seriously time for OE's to start offering dog boxes. If they can set an ECU to manipulate revs and manage driveline torque during manual shifting, à la Corvette/370z/M3, suddenly there's no need for syncros or the clutch disengagement every shift, as long as you don't mind the odd clunk.)

Syncros are nice if you ever drove a 1948 GM dump truck that had non synchronized transmission. A lot of double clutching until your can find out your engine revs and transmission's gears. Really makes having gear lube in the transmission gear box a must. Ahh , the good old days??? I had to grind em to find em days. LOL

Enabled · Jul 10, 2014

vwdieseling said:
Syncros are nice if you ever drove a 1948 GM dump truck that had non synchronized transmission. A lot of double clutching until your can find out your engine revs and transmission's gears. Really makes having gear lube in the transmission gear box a must. Ahh , the good old days???

Hahah, I'm way too young for that.

Enabled · Jul 10, 2014

So hopefully I will have the parts tomorrow in hand and put in the car over the weekend.

Total:

$~60 for 2 shift segments
$43 for a reverse gear (mine was pretty chipped)
and probably another $30 in fluids

Enabled · Jul 12, 2014

So, the dealer only sent 1 (of 2) shift segments. Delays delays. Also, what kind of Audi and Volkswagen dealers only carry JUST 2 liters of G060 gear oil????!! I want to put in 3, and have to special order one.

Unbelievable.

turbocharged798 · Jul 12, 2014

Don't put in 3, it will overfill the trans and cause shifting issues. Put it in 2 from a dry fill and stop.

Enabled · Jul 12, 2014

turbocharged798 said:
Don't put in 3, it will overfill the trans and cause shifting issues. Put it in 2 from a dry fill and stop.

Really? It was on either this forum or vwvortex that said 3 from dry. I'll just consult the VW manuals. Thanks for the heads up.

Enabled · Jul 16, 2014

So to update this, I have put the transmission back together again today.

I replaced shift segments for 3rd/4th gear with new from the dealer (~29 USD a piece), a new reverse gear as it was very chipped by the previous owner (~40 USD, ebay, brand new OEM), and I replaced some springs for 5th gear synchro hub, and some clips.
I sealed the transmission with a gasket maker after cleaning everything really well.
Also my gears and all bearings had a nice mild solvent bath, rinsed, and dried.

I put 2 liters of G060 gear oil from the dealer, and installed the transmission.

I aligned/adjusted the shifter cables, and went for a spin.

I am happy to report that the transmission shifts excellently through all the gears, no grinding, or any funny noises. Reverse gear no longer makes a grinding sound when attempting to use it.

I also did some quick shifts from 1st to 2nd, to 3rd, to 4th, to test it out. All went very well.

Additionally I did some downshifts with revmatch from 5th to 3rd while braking (heel-toe shifts), as well as 3rd to 2nd, and they were flawless.

I suppose it was a success.

Enabled · Aug 5, 2014

3 weeks and I'm finally starting to trust the newly refreshed transmission.

All is well, for now.

vgmnstr · Aug 24, 2014

I have a 1/2 and Reverse gear shift issue. Apparently the bushing for the lateral (sideways) movement on the shifter deteriorated and broke apart. Engaging 1st at a stoplight, sometimes it does, sometimes i have to push on the lever with another hand. Reverse always requires help to engage. Anyone know if the bushing is available as a separate part?

Enabled · Aug 25, 2014

Hmm, this is curious. Anyone have a picture of what it's supposed to be like new?

I'm going to be changing the shift boot soon, and I'd like to know what to compare to.

Although it may be obvious.

gmenounos · Aug 25, 2014

This?

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4516452&postcount=21

A_Shifter · May 20, 2015

I've had similar transient shift/grind/sticks-in-gear issues with two other 02J transmissions as well, both with code EGR, like the OP.
Not sure if it has anything to do with it but I'll be looking for a different code when I buy.
Maybe I'm being superstitious but swapping these transmissions is not my favorite job.

Enabled · May 20, 2015

I don't think it had to do with the code of the transmission. After all there are too many variables to look into because I'm not the original owner.

Possible factors for my situation in my opinion:
-Previous owner has not ever changed/checked transmission fluid, clutch was in a horrible state when I got it.
-Previous owner drove the car resting hand on shifter
-Shifter misaligned
-Low on fluid for whatever reason
-Unknown fault from the factory

Things I don't think was the cause:
-Fluid choice, as the interior of that transmission was very clean, with damage only to the 3rd and 4th shift pins AND the reverse gear.
-Transmission code: the basic shell and mechanicals of the transmission has been used for a long time, as this O2J is identical to O2A transmissions, and shares parts internally.

YOU NEED the correct transmission code for your car (or at least for TDI specific) or else the gearing will be too short if it comes from a gas car, etc. TDI transmissions from the BEW engined TDIs are a very slight improvement as the gearing is a bit taller in all gears.

Looks like this shop has seen such failures before. http://kansascitytdi.com/02j-trans-repair/

crawdaddy · Jan 26, 2016

Enabled said:
the shift segments for 3rd and 4th (pegs on shift fork that move hub up or down) were ground down to almost non existent. I will take a picture of it soon. It's like they were milled down completely by the hub.

(#2 in this picture)

Items 1 and 8, First photo, what are the part numbers?
The 2nd picture shows 3 different types of pegs. Are they all different part #?

Click to expand...

Enabled · Jan 27, 2016

Use this link to find the part numbers you need http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/show...1732&ukey_driveLine=8000&ukey_trimLevel=18863

In first picture, #1, shift segment for 5th gear hub is 02A311585K.
Its clip is N90397501, yes as used in trim panel parts.

It looks like the whole 5th gear selector fork (02A311562A) with all segments/clips is about the same price or cheaper than just 2 segments.

Yes each shift segment is a different part number.

-Shift segment for 1st and 2nd gear is 02J311585A (or 02A311585H). #8 in picture you referred to.
-Shift segment for 3rd and 4th gear is 02A311585J.

montyypythonss · Sep 22, 2018

I am having similar issues with my 2002 o2j manual. My engine just hit 500,000 miles and the trans has about 400,000? (used to have an automatic). within the past year i have replaced the bushing on the shifter, it had deteriorated. I have replaced the bearing on the shifter tower, it was worn out, the shifter arm several times, cable ends. Before i replaced the shift knob bushing i was having trouble shifting from 1st to 2nd, after i discovered the bushing was bad i replaced it and the upshift problem went away. soon after that the trans developed a downshift problem from 3rd to 2nd, now it has developed a downshift problem from 4th to 3rd also. to downshift to 3rd i have to act like i am upshifting from 2nd to 3rd, same goes for 2nd gear. I have checked the linkage several times, it shifts fine with the engine off and while sitting still with the clutch pushed in. After reading your post i wonder if my problem is in the shift fork pins also. With the amount of mile on the trans i would not be surprised. Do these shift symptoms sound like more of a fork problem then synchros? there is no grinding noise at all, you just cant downshift into 3rd or 2nd unless you trick it.

leafs · Sep 23, 2018

Enabled said:
By the way, if you can change your clutch, You can open your transmission. Just FYI.

It is not a magical wonder of mechanical amazement, except for the fact that someone had to come up with this design to make it.

yeah but what kind of magical specialty tools are required?

Enabled · Nov 3, 2018

I was asked by others with 3rd and 4th shift segment issues, so I will add here:

You need part number 02A311585J x2 (segments for 3rd and 4th gear) with the clamping washer N90397501 x2.

Aaronh7 · Jun 9, 2020

Did that fix the problem? I have a rebuilt trans that I just installed I'm having the same problem. I can't go from 5 into 4 without moving towards 3 first. Can't go from 4 into 3 without going to 2 first

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Sharknet · Oct 19, 2020

montypythonss & Aaronh7

I'm having the same issue as the both of you. Did you guys ever resolve this? Or at least determine what was causing it?

Ed27 · Oct 19, 2020

Hey, everyone,
As it seems we're talking about a 5 speed manual tranny I have an ever persistent problem with no 1st 3rd 5th or reverse. In fact, I got home today using 2nd and 4th. It seems my up/down cable has stretched considerably with 450k I shouldn't be surprised. My point is you have to check your cable adjustment and the shifter bushings. Yes, VW made/makes quality but it will not last forever and at ~50 mpg I'll keep fixing it.

02J EGR Manual transmission 3rd/4th gear issue

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