Injector nozzles IBW and DBW please chime in

I am looking into new injector nozzles and over the years have remembered reading a bit about the benefits.

Not sure exactly what injectors are in the car, however, my impression is that they're smaller nozzles like the .502's based on the performance of the original Malone tune installed and them saying that it wasn't getting enough fuel.
I am swapping into a 1.8T and have the engine out.
I found the fuel pickup was broken so I decided to go with another upgrade and installed the BEW pickup pump.
It had a manual swap from an auto so the injection pump is supposed to be 11mm.
I have a Malone stage 3 tune and vnt17.

I read IBW's post in a few places stating: "PP520s, 11mm, VNT-17 is a*sweet*spot*in these cars."*

My question: are these truly my best option for power and economy given my setup.

What's the difference between the pp520's and r520's in all of this?


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And the other question I have is about cylinder compression ratio.

Do I need to worry about it with the setup?
If so how much?

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I vote for PP764. I had those on my stock turbo 1Z and they were more than enough fuel for my setup with a 10mm IP. I currently have a GT2052 and R520 nozzles and 11mm IP on the same engine and I still have more fuel than I need so gonna say PP764 is probably perfect for you. Compression ratio isn't an issue until you plan on going past 28-30 PSI so you'll be fine there.

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Yeah, with the Gauge reading 36psi on the present tune I may need to let off a little, maybe put the lighter one on, however, he said that was less fuel not air.

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eddieleephd said:

My question: are these truly my best option for power and economy given my setup.

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bigger the better
getting 48 still with DSS-r .360s

Everyone (and every tuner) have different opinions on what is "best" for the given situation. Best bet is to have a plan/goal in mind for your car and then talk to your tuner (Malone) about what they recommend.

I'm with [486] in that bigger is better - The 1st step up from stock should be R520's in my opinion , but like I said, your tuner has to make it work to your satisfaction so best to consult with them.

Like it was said before, bigger is better. It’s always better to have the ability and not use it, so pay for big nozzles once.


Bajan

On my ALH with the 17/22 and 11mm pump (and other breathing mods, no internal mods) I ran PP520s, PP502s, and PP764s. The 502s were great, a little smokey, but the car made awesome power with them (185/320 on a very conservative dyno). The PP520s were better on the track as EGTs didn't get out of control. The 764s were smokey and FE suffered. These were all with different Rocketchip tunes, but all were versions of his Stage 6 (6000 RPM) tune.

As FUB posted, your tuner should provide guidance here. Malone may have different opinions than RC, in fact I'm pretty certain he does. I'm an outlier on this anyway: Now running 11mm, PP357s with a stock turbo and RC3+ Car is pretty much smoke free, makes great power (about 140/260 at the wheels) and I haven't had a tank under 700 miles in ages. Depends on what you want.

I appreciate all the replies.

I believe that I need new injector nozzles and would always prefer to make an improvement when doing such things.
In my experience bigger is not always better.

Preferred outcome for me is to gain moderate power without sacrificing fuel mileage.

I asked for IBW and DBW to chime in because I read their responses to others and they always give more information about their experience than opinion.

FUB, I will definitely shoot a message to Malone and see what they say.

Still would like to hear more about people's experience in this field before I pull the trigger.

Still curious about the compression ratio in the mix.

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I'll be curious to see if you get any actual "information" from DBW - I've inquired several times and failed.

Moderate power without mileage penalty will come from the tune, independent of which properly setup nozzles you have. I've run Stock, PP502's and R520's - no difference in MPG between PP502's and R520's for me. Too many changes between stock and the others to make a fair comparison.

Unless you're thinking of going way beyond your VNT17/11mm - do not lower your compression ratio - you WILL take an efficiency and transient response (driveability) hit for no practical gain. I lost ~5 MPG by dropping compression ratio ~1.5 points but I'm also running >200 Bar PCP's and 40+PSI boost with compound turbos.

If the head is not off the engine, don't worry about it. If you already have it apart, do your piston protrusion measurements and put in the correct thickness head gasket, insure the block and head surfaces are true and put it back together.

I agree on compression. It's always mystified me why people lower compression so they can add more boost. Seems like a zero-sum game. And max boost from a VNT-17 won't stress stock internals.

One thing I would suggest is you weight balance piston and rod assemblies. Mr Chill did this on my wagon (assemblies are now in my Golf) and it makes the engine run significantly smoother. As long as it's apart...

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I agree on compression. It's always mystified me why people lower compression so they can add more boost. Seems like a zero-sum game. And max boost from a VNT-17 won't stress stock internals.

One thing I would suggest is you weight balance piston and rod assemblies. Mr Chill did this on my wagon (assemblies are now in my Golf) and it makes the engine run significantly smoother. As long as it's apart...

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Thank you, I was just reading about the CR in others posts, for the first time really, and had to ask.

I don't really want to take the engine apart, just put it in the recipient and drive it.

I'm waiting for my exhaust repair of the flex and addition of the egt bung at the exit to proceed with the install, easier to wait than fight the exhaust afterwards.

Knowing it's been about 100k, or so, since the injectors were installed, I have been thinking about injectors for so long and installing a new lift pump I think I can pull a quick upgrade on injectors and Improve economy and performance.

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Fix_Until_Broke said:

do not lower your compression ratio - you WILL take an efficiency and transient response (driveability) hit for no practical gain. I lost ~5 MPG by dropping compression ratio ~1.5 points but I'm also running >200 Bar PCP's and 40+PSI boost with compound turbos.

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you sure? I remember starting a thread on here about raising compression in a hypermiler type build, and some pretty darn knowledgeable folks here said that the peak thermal efficiency in an engine our size is around 17:1
Was talking about going up in the 2x:1 range like an older IDI, but they were saying it was only brought up that high back then for ease of cold starting.

anyways, never noticed any hit going down to 18.5:1 ARL pistons, then only noticed a slight hit in FE after cutting the bowl on them, but that was easy enough to gain back by making minor improvements to my horrendous SOI maps.

ETA: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=434554
found the thread, guess it was less of a resounding tide against the idea. Huh.

pp520s and an 11mm pump should be able to max out a VNT17 no problem, have put 165whp on a 1749vb with an exhaust and otherwise stock car, made 145 with a 10mm pump, timing affected power by less than 5 and was set advanced, IQ was around 2.8-3.2

A well known S7/BV39 2L with a CNC port and polished head, pp764s, 11mm pump, stage 3 colt cam etc etc could barely break 145whp without hitting 1800F+ EGTs while riding the surge line on a competitor tune for comparison. Really just boils down to getting the air in and out with a reasonable amount of smoke output and EGTs. Worth checking boost logs and exhaust restrictions, you can also check pump voltage wide open in VCDS, it should get to around 4.5 if fueling is maxed in the tune.

I'd go with pp764s personally to future-proof and shorten the duration a hair. Should check the part # on the pump to make sure it wasn't swapped. Stage 3 is also set at 18 psi, vnt17 is good for 24 on a 3 bar.

Owain@malonetuning said:

pp520s and an 11mm pump should be able to max out a VNT17

I'd go with pp764s personally to future-proof and shorten the duration a hair. Should check the part # on the pump to make sure it wasn't swapped. Stage 3 is also set at 18 psi, vnt17 is good for 24 on a 3 bar.

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Thank you Owain,
Definitely appreciate your participation as a tuner in the forums!
I prefer to do business with vendors that have a neutral presence in the forums because I see their benefits to the community!

After reading the responses I believe that either of the 520 nozzles would be my best option as I definitely have an 11mm pump based on the j at the end of the number and I will not be going for anything larger than the VNT17.
I believe that I have a tune set to 22-24 based on the external boost gauge, 22+14.7=36.7 which makes sense. Now I know the gauge isn't set to 0 at ambiant.

I guess the only question that remains in the difference between the pp520's and r520's.

Time to read some more

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race 520s are substantially larger and more for race use and bigger turbos.

Owain@malonetuning said:

race 520s are substantially larger and more for race use and bigger turbos.

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I was just reading about the R520's Kerma says they flow more than the VW race car's injectors, way more than I want!


I found that the PP520 has been superseded bu the ULSD 1019, these are supposed to support 120-190 Whp (Kerma)
Definitely the top end of the turbo and upper center of the nozzles for max.



PP764 are supposed to support 150-210 Whp (Kerma)
At first this seems way too big; and then I find this in another thread, and likely what DBW would have said here also, seems the pp764's are most recommended to accompany the VNT17 given proper tuning and adjustment. I understand now exactly why you recommended them Owain, thank you!

Drivbiwire said:

Go with the PP764, flows more and when trimmed for quantity you can get better fuel economy, lower smoke AND put out more power.

The PP764 will easily support 200+hp, the VNT 17 will get you to around 180hp with some margin.

The PP502 for the most part is an obsolete flow range because of the ULSD 1019 and PP764 covering that full flow range with better power and fuel economy.

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