Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

farfrumsanity

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If and when VW goes to the Common Rail Diesel design there will not be a need for the 505 + 506 spec oil, so under the guise of low SAPS they are able to develop a new spec oil which only they are able to market. I'm not saying to limit engine development with Wal-Mart as a condition, but it would be nice to be able to stop at any convenient car parts supplier on a trip and buy a needed quart of oil. I can remember the Texas Instruments computer that wanted control of available software, and we know where the TI computer is today. If your local dealer is a disaster, do you really like having to purchase oil at the only place where it is available?
 

BoosTDIt

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Dieseldorf or anybody else... do you know of any NA source for the Mobil Mobil 1 ESP Formula SAE 5W-30 50400/50700

I'm a big Mobil fan and any info on where to get this oil and for the best price too would be appreciated...
 

dieseldorf

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I don't think the Mobil product is available yet.

These products aren't officially in the USA since there are no vehicles here that require them.

Danix and turbofrog have the ELF product.
 

BoosTDIt

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ouch damn....1 year later they still don't have the new oils here...i start to feel sorry for moving to the states

i got some of the new Elf from Impex the other day.
 

Dennis P Roth

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507.00 in a 2006 PD - Pearls before Swine?

dieseldorf said:
self-explanatory:





thanks to nortones2 for sharing this info
Ok, I get it. I can use 507 oil in my new 2006 PD engine. But will it do me any good? Will it make my engine last longer? 507 is engineered for the new EURO IV engines and to prolong the life of the DPF. But I haven't got a EURO IV engine or a DPF. Do I really need this stuff? I can get a case of 18 liters of ELF SOLARIS LLX 5W30 (504.00 / 507.00) for $186 postpaid which is considerably more than a case of Pentosynth 505.01. Is it worth it in terms of engine life or are the extra cost and features to protect a DPF that I haven't got?

As an analogy, I kept a Dodge Dakota 18 years 9 months. It was designed for 87 Octane gas, Occasionally I gave it 89 octane to get the better detergent package of mid grade when I though it would help. I only put 92 octane high test in when the the gas station was out of everything else. It ran no better on high test than on mid-grade because the engine didn't have high enough compression to make use of the higher octane and the detergent package of high test is no better than mid-grade. In fact, most name brand gasolines have a good detergent package even in the 87 octane regular these days. Had I feed that truck 92 octane high test from day one to its last day, I doubt it would have lasted another day longer, but I would have spent a lot of money foolishly on something the truck didn't need and couldn't exploit. Buying high test for my 1987 Dodge Dakota would have been like casting pearls before swine. The Dakota couldn't appreciate it.

While I appeciate the desire to use the best quality motor oil to ensure a long trouble life for your engine, I wonder if getting 507.00 spec oil for a North American 2006 PD engine is like casting pearls before swine or putting high test gas in a 1987 Dakota? Would I be paying up for qualities I don't need and can't use? Is 507.00 spec worth it?
 

BrianCT

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Dennis P Roth said:
Would I be paying up for qualities I don't need and can't use? Is 507.00 spec worth it?
After reading this entire thread the only subject that has not been covered is a discussion on grandchildren.

:(

You're using an analogy of octane for basis on engine oil. You're only changing oil every 10,000 to 15,000 miles at maybe ...an added total cost of B/(W) $10.00 [comparison to older VAG engine oils]. I understand the points but considering all the good information posted on where the technologies are moving, it's $10.00 over the course of many months and miles.

I'm faced with the same issue now having both a PD 2006 and a 2002 rotary pump. I'm moving towards one shelf to hold one oil for both engines and it's but ten-bucks for the better.

Remember those simpler days?

I don't.

It's been always complicated in modern day times.

-B


Push Rods and Flat Heads
 

dj_check

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How about engine designers work within the limitations of what is availble to their customers? I'm on my forth generation of injection pumps that fell victim to "the car of tomorrow", and I'm tired of paying $1KUS per pump each time the rules change. I'd rather pay more on the front end to get components that would live in my world: lube oil and fuel that I can find to buy. My first diesel lasted 250Kmiles, my latest only 101K.
 

DPM

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So no more modern gasoline engines either then? Put the wrong (non Ford-specced) oil in many of the latest 16v I4s from the blue oval and they will quite literally grind to a halt. Stop. Fail to work.
 

dieseldorf

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Dennis P Roth said:
Will it make my engine last longer? Is 507.00 spec worth it?

there are no VWs in NAmerica that require this oil at this time. PERIOD.

This oil represents a major consolidation of many VAG specs.

Buy 506.01 if you seek a speciality boutique oil.

Let's hope we do need 507.00 in the future when new, higher-tech diesels arrive on our shores. Is this making sense ?
 

Dennis P Roth

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dieseldorf said:
there are no VWs in NAmerica that require this oil at this time. PERIOD.
Thank you for making that clear. I came to the same conclusion a couple of days ago and got Pentosynth 505.01 for my next oil change. I will continue to use Pentosynth 505.01 or other 505.01 oils until there is a demonstrably better motor oil for long trouble free engine life.
 
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donDavide

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Ohv

Dan_Ruddock said:
I have a lot of respect for what VW has done for diesels I own one but some things could use improvement. AS far as ohc engines they are a vast improvement over pushrods in gas engines or a diesel with vtec or multivalve. Just because something is old or not high tech does not mean it's bad. In some applacations it might be perfect for the job. You have to think out side of the box. Dan
Corvette z06 ohv. Car and Driver did an article on why Chevy stil used OHV for there vettes a couple of years ago.
 

TDIfor

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just think Dan, do you really want to live in a world where engine and emissions developments are limited by the oils on the shelves of Wal-Mart?
Not to bring up 60-yr-old history (ethnically Im 7/8th German and am proudly and unflinchingly a German-ophile), the nation DOES have a nasty habit of overenginerring. The Luger is a magnificent handgun, but with 78 parts, its a bear to repair. The Tiger and King Tiger tanks were incredibly capable, but complex and expensive to build, and could not be built in sufficient quantities. The Russians, with their T-series, could and did produce tanks in the thousands, and won the war in the East. Same for the Sherman tank - inferior in all respects to the German tanks, but could be mass-produced. Russian machine guns could, and did, operate when handfuls of dirt were tossed in the mechanisms, German machine guns were prone to jamming since the tolerenances were so tight. Wonderfully accurate, but all the accuracy in the world doesnt count for much when you need a bang and get a click.

So, yeah, to get market share, and survive in the US, VW DOES have to adopt a "get it at WalMart" mentality.

What OTHER automotive brand essentially requires its owners to join a TDI club so there is enough shared knowledge and skill to keep the vehicles running? Love my VW. Love the TDI. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Would I give it to my wife as her main car? No way. She has a Buick, and while lacking in technological elegance, it has the simple virtue of continuing to run and be repairable at an affordable price when it breaks.

Don
 
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tditom

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Interesting points about German engineering. But I disagree that VW needs to dumb down their standards to compete in the North American market. Just think of what this would entail, engineering wise. They would need to have a different product development for this market. Different engineering groups? That would not make sense. BMW and Mercedes have their special oil requirements too. So does Honda and Ford. I think the people griping about the availability of the required oils are in the minority here. Most folks will trade the convenience of being able to pick it up at the corner store for 10-30k mile OCI's and more powerful engines, IMO.
 

shaark92

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Yes Interesting

Wasn't VW originally created to design basic transportation for "the people?"

I'm not a Volkswagen affcionado (though I do like my Jetta) ... so I could be in error. But this is what I've heard from a buddy who thought his 60-some-odd year Beetle was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

From all the constant work he had to do to it ... I guess so ... for an auto repair shop.

Al Out
 

your2slow

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The majority of car owners in America could care less if the oil is hard to get since they will take it to the dealer or a quick lube place instead of doing the work themselves. I have a buddy that would rather pay double the amount to get his oil changed at the dealer instead of doing it himself. For the money I save on oil changes over using a dealer I'm able to use a premium oil and know my work was done correctly. There aren't many of us that go to those lengths though.
 

TDIfor

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From what I understand, diesels are far more prevelant in cars in Europe than the US. Mainly due to the way fuel is taxed, if I am correct.

TDIs are a specialty car, and it takes a person willing to be involved with the technology to keep the beast running correctly. And, as an automotive experiment, it is marvelous.

Alas, people in the US want appliance cars, that are traded in ev. 3 years before the warranty runs out. So, in this environment, is there a role for TDIs in the US?

Certainly, the fueling options of biodiesel is a big sell right now, and if VW can keep the TDI interest up, that may be the way to get mainstream adoption. But the country seems to be trying to move to ethanol and largely ignoring the "clean diesel" movement as an oxymoron.

And it is interesting that in the VW ads Ive seen, the TDI is _never_ featured. You have to be aware VW has diesels, but they are not marketed.

So, we are, all of us, on this marvelous voyage of discovery. Wonder where we will end up??

Don
 

tdisedanman

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shaark92 said:
Wasn't VW originally created to design basic transportation for "the people?"

I'm not a Volkswagen affcionado (though I do like my Jetta) ... so I could be in error. But this is what I've heard from a buddy who thought his 60-some-odd year Beetle was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

From all the constant work he had to do to it ... I guess so ... for an auto repair shop.

Al Out
Having had a 62 and 63 beetle ( {1963} one in which I put a 1959 engine purchased from a junk yard for 26.00 ) and a 70 hmmm maybe 71 convertible beetle, I can say they were very little trouble and ran and ran. I think my 62 ran the best. Wish I had it now as it was a hoot to drive. Although, here in So. Florida, I wouldn't drive it to much as it had no A/C. The view from my 05.5 Jetta reminds me of the old beetles as you hardly saw the hood in front of you.
 

airedad

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Idiot proof?

Dan_Ruddock said:
Nonsense! Cars should be designed to be able to run oil off the local parts store shelf or in other words be idiot proof. ... (SNIP)
Not to be a smart-alec, but (OK, I can't help it) ... Sorry - I work part of the time in the field of reliability engineering, and we have a very old saying:

Nothing can be made "idiot proof" - because idiots are so creative.

--

Just my US$0.02 worth. Accounting for inflation, this will probably be worth a lot less. And as always, YMMV.
 

tdijerry

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TDIfor said:
From what I understand, diesels are far more prevelant in cars in Europe than the US. Mainly due to the way fuel is taxed, if I am correct.

TDIs are a specialty car, and it takes a person willing to be involved with the technology to keep the beast running correctly. And, as an automotive experiment, it is marvelous.

Alas, people in the US want appliance cars, that are traded in ev. 3 years before the warranty runs out. So, in this environment, is there a role for TDIs in the US?

Certainly, the fueling options of biodiesel is a big sell right now, and if VW can keep the TDI interest up, that may be the way to get mainstream adoption. But the country seems to be trying to move to ethanol and largely ignoring the "clean diesel" movement as an oxymoron.

And it is interesting that in the VW ads Ive seen, the TDI is _never_ featured. You have to be aware VW has diesels, but they are not marketed.

So, we are, all of us, on this marvelous voyage of discovery. Wonder where we will end up??

Don

the vw dealers here in north carolia can sell all the tdi's that they can get.:)
 

wny_pat

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Dan_Ruddock said:
Nonsense! Cars should be designed to be able to run oil off the local parts store shelf or in other words be idiot proof.
It sounds like you are talking about the Yugo. I remember the first review I read about the Yugo in Popular Mechanics and that was the big selling point - Idiot proof and easy to fix.

Now back to the proper topic. The europeans are far ahead of us on the oil issues. All you have to do is look at the oils being recommended by the US Auto Makers today compared to what they were recommending less than 10 years ago. 0w30 and 5w30 engery saving oils. Europe already had those oils. I remember in 2000 when Ford was recommending 5w30 in their 4 cyl Ztec engine and suddenly in 2001 it was recommending 0w30. They found out the 0w30 was better. When the US Auto Makers started recommending the 6,000 and 7,000 mile oil change intervals, the Europeans were recommending 12,000 mile oil change intervals. Worse part about it is that many US independent garages are still recommending 3,000 mile oil changes! API and the Auto Makers just are not getting the message out there, and they are still lagging behind.
 

Logismoi

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wny_pat said:
Worse part about it is that many US independent garages are still recommending 3,000 mile oil changes! API and the Auto Makers just are not getting the message out there, and they are still lagging behind.
Don't they have a vested interest in saying every 3000 miles? Doesn't [SIZE=-1]Pennzoil own Jiffy Lube International? Mo Money! Mo Money!

[/SIZE]This means the consumer is in their shop with money in-hand MORE OFTEN unnessasarily so.

I believe it to be the very same reason for the seeming "unwillingness" of VWoA to allow for long life drain intervals, because the dealers would see the customers (aside from warranty issues) that much LESS for the sched'd oil changes. Which equals less $

Ah politics in the guise of sayings like, "we are a different market than the Euro market regarding drain intervals, etc" so hence 505.01 vs. 506.01, etc.

Same with the Lupo 1.3L diesel not being here in the US w/ it's 60+ mpg? Take care of it and it will go as million miles+? "But then the consumer would be in the dealership that million miles less" say the lobbyists.



-
 

AndyH

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wny_pat said:
Now back to the proper topic. The europeans are far ahead of us on the oil issues. All you have to do is look at the oils being recommended by the US Auto Makers today compared to what they were recommending less than 10 years ago. 0w30 and 5w30 engery saving oils. Europe already had those oils. I remember in 2000 when Ford was recommending 5w30 in their 4 cyl Ztec engine and suddenly in 2001 it was recommending 0w30. They found out the 0w30 was better. When the US Auto Makers started recommending the 6,000 and 7,000 mile oil change intervals, the Europeans were recommending 12,000 mile oil change intervals. Worse part about it is that many US independent garages are still recommending 3,000 mile oil changes! API and the Auto Makers just are not getting the message out there, and they are still lagging behind.
The Europeans are running the longer OCIs with fluids built to run those intervals in those vehicles - and they have something like 25 gas and 25 diesel specs to select from. In the US, with our minimum-standard one-size-fits-all-GM/Chrysler/Ford gassers for 6 months or 7500 miles of normal service interval, we're in a significantly different situation.

I used to think that the 3000 mile OCI was a 'myth' but if we realize that the API and the Filter Manufacturers Council (the 'API' for oil filters) agree that that 6 months/7500 mile OCI for normal service must be backed down to 3000 miles or 3 months for severe service - and about 80% of Americans are actually in 'severe service', you can see that the quick lubes and mechanics are making the proper recommendation for the products they use.

The insanity isn't that minimum standard products can go longer, but that there is better oil available in the US market that CAN run longer AND give the mechanics a higher per-car profit.

For what it's worth, the concept of an extended oil change interval, and products that give those intervals, originated here in the US. The European consumer market, like the US commercial market, saw the benefit of the longer-life products first. The US consumer market is slowly coming around.
 

truman

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Another example of the problem we face in the US is the focus on the cheapest solution. Some time ago, I think it may have been posted by Oil Hammer, that Toyota was considering a synthetic oil requirement for their vehicles. The dealer network raised a big stink about it and Toyo backed off. The mainstream consumer has a Walmart or in this case a Jiffy Lube mentality. IIRC, a few yrs ago, Toyo was having oil sludge problems on some cars which followed the recommended intervals. The solution was not a better oil, but a shorter interval.
 

Charm

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sorry to get back on topic, but has anyone tested and concluded on the 507 oil?

I made another post called "the best oil for an ALH engine, completley regardless of price for an engine with several performance mods"

In the end I decided that i need to stay with a full synthtetic, and an oil that had at least a 5-XX in its rating.
After a bit of discussion it seemed like Delvac-1 that I have used along remains the most sensible choice.

But I keep getting drawn to these exotic european oils. some people think the 0W-30 are too thin, especially for summer. I was close to breaking from my mechanics' warnings and get Elf CRV oil, common its oem in the V10 TDI!

i knew solaris existed but i just kept myself from thinking of it, because it seemed so new.

if the only change to it is that it is engineered for a longer drain interval than that should be great, because i decided from the same post it might not be a bad idea to do 7.5K changes on my car because of the mods and how I drive my car.

I have a severe love affair with my car and my goal is for it to run forever with its only time in the shop is to be modded. so if spending 15$ a quart might give me a better chance at keeping that engine from aging you will sure i will buy it.

Also, this is really rudimentatry, what is the difference between 5w-30 and 5w-40. i know the 5 has to do with viscosity.
Other than Delvac-1 being 5w-40, is there any benefit it has over this 5w-30 Solaris Oil?
 

dieseldorf

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Charm said:
But I keep getting drawn to these exotic european oils. some people think the 0W-30 are too thin, especially for summer. I was close to breaking from my mechanics' warnings and get Elf CRV oil, common its oem in the V10 TDI!
Charm, why not look at FULL TECH from ELF for your ALH engine? It's a thick (higher HT/HS) 0W30 and is listed in the "energy conserving" line up from ELF. It will be less $$ than the Solaris and is suitable for extended drain. Oh, it meets 505.00 and many other contemporary OE specs ;)
 

hutchman

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Charm said:
sorry to get back on topic, but has anyone tested and concluded on the 507 oil?
I just posted a UOA with Elf 507 in my ALH. Wasn't too great and I doubt a lot can be learned from it since I did a TB change and some engine work right at the end of the interval which probably screwed it up. This was the very first use of all synthetic after the car had been run on Shell Rotella T for 69k miles.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1468533#post1468533

Regards,

Brian
 

tditom

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hutch- what did you ever conclude with the intake problems you had in this thread? I guess you decided that the 507 oil wasn't the cause. Was it your biodiesel?
 
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