Jacking points

sgoldste01

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Most torque wrenches use a stock ratchet head. it's a bit cheaper that way, I guess. My 1/2 inch Torque wrench is a one way ratchet.

I found this:

A Torque Wrench Should Never be Used to Loosen Fasteners
This one is the truth. You might argue that if a torque wrench can handle tightening bolts to 250 ft-lbs, it should be able to reliably handle loosening that same bolt. And this is true, but when it comes to loosening a fastener you don’t always know what’s going to be required to get it loose.

After several heat cycles and the accumulation of dirt and grime that can coat everything in a race car, a bolt can gall against the threads and require a lot more torque to remove than was required to originally install. Most of us don’t watch the torque when loosening bolts, so it’s quite possible to exceed the maximum torque loading of a wrench when breaking bolts loose. The wrench will still function in terms of tightening or loosening bolts, but by exceeding its maximum torque limit loosening that tight bolt may have thrown off the calibration.
I will read the wrench's documentation when I get home. But if the main concern is exceeding the max torque loading of the wrench, I don't think I've done that. This wrench is rated 25 to 250 lbs, and I know I'm not strong enough to break a bolt that's been tightened to 250 lbs. The 89-lb lugs on the VW wheels are about the highest setting I've ever tightened or loosened. Although I did once remove the wheels on my wife's van after it had been worked on by a garage, and those lugs were more stubborn than my VW lugs. But again, they couldn't have been stubborn to the tune of 250+ lbs, or I wouldn't have ever gotten them off myself.
 

TonyJetta

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TonyJetta, my objective was to document a process that would put all four tires in the air at the same time, which is useful when rotating tires, bleeding brake lines, other brake service, and probably other procedures I'm not thinking of. So the use of ramps wouldn't have accomplished my goal, although it would be fine if you're just trying to raise the back end without floating the rear tires in the air. I agree that supporting the weight of the car on the lower control arms is a bad idea, which is why I like my use of the subframe instead.
Agreed. I was posting my method, and the scope involved.

I really don't like how the rear end gets in the air, lifting one corner at a time.

Tony
 

MaddogTDI

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Opinions of this process?


Umm... not sure I would recommend using a block of wood in that orientation. Weakest direction for the wood is from the end grain (that's why you split wood on the end and why furniture makers avoid the use of joints that rely on end grain).

If you need more height, you can lay the blocks on their sides and then stack them log cabin style (i.e., two in one direction on the bottom, two 90 degs on the next level, and so on until you get to the desired height).

I hate to tell you how to do things, and you should absolutely do what you feel safe doing, but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I didn't speak up and then god forbid something happened while you were under the car.
 

sgoldste01

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Umm... not sure I would recommend using a block of wood in that orientation. Weakest direction for the wood is from the end grain (that's why you split wood on the end and why furniture makers avoid the use of joints that rely on end grain).

If you need more height, you can lay the blocks on their sides and then stack them log cabin style (i.e., two in one direction on the bottom, two 90 degs on the next level, and so on until you get to the desired height).

I hate to tell you how to do things, and you should absolutely do what you feel safe doing, but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I didn't speak up and then god forbid something happened while you were under the car.
Interesting concern. However, wall studs and such timbers are used to support their load vertically.

With regard to your splitting wood analogy, that's when the wood is hit with a sharp tool that strikes the wood quickly, vs. the car's sub-frame which is not sharp, and which is lowered slowly.

So I'm inclined to believe that your concerns should not cause worry. But this is the kind of discussion I'm looking for. I don't want to do anything unwise myself, or have others follow a procedure that I thought was safe but isn't.

Other opinions? Is my vertically-oriented timber post a bad idea? I would think that one solid timber, versus the suggestion of stacking timbers like a log cabin, is a better approach. It seems to me that loosely stacked pieces are more likely to shift or slide than one solid piece.
 

MaddogTDI

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A wall studs is an excellent observation... however, wall studs are always capped with a top plate (or two) and "shoe'd" with a sole plate (to spread the load evenly over the entire end grained surface of the stud)... and they are redundantly supportive (i.e., there are many wall studs holding up a wall...) you are using one per jack point.

In addition, the pictures show a line contact condition (i.e. the round edge of your frame member mates to the wood black in a thin line) which creates a stress concentration and dramatically increase the force along that contact point.

Granted... it's not the same as striking the wood with a maul, but if there are hidden weak points or cracks in the wood, it wouldn't matter if it was force generated from a impact blow or force derived solely by the concentrated weight of the vehicle. If the wood has a weak spot, it is much more likely to fail when used in that manner.

But... your mileage may vary... you've survived this long. Must be doing something right!
 

MaddogTDI

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BTW... we've got almost the same car! Right down to the Denvers w/ Altimax winter set up we both run! Bought them on your recommendation and they worked flawlessly in what little snow we got this winter!
 

sgoldste01

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BTW... we've got almost the same car! Right down to the Denvers w/ Altimax winter set up we both run! Bought them on your recommendation and they worked flawlessly in what little snow we got this winter!
So you copied my car/wheel/tire recommendations, but now you're questioning my wisdom with regard to the timber? What's wrong with you?

;) <Just kidding>
 

jasong70

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How strong is that cross member? Ever see it deflect or dent/bend? Looks like a great spot to me. I don't usually rotate my tires when they're on the car. I'll just put them in a different spot the following year, but changing the tires, both rear wheels is allow faster and safer than using the pinch weld.



Opinions of this process?
 

MaddogTDI

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So you copied my car/wheel/tire recommendations, but now you're questioning my wisdom with regard to the timber? What's wrong with you?

;) <Just kidding>

Your taste was never in doubt! I didn't question the aesthetic appeal of your blocks... just the structural integrity "as used"!

:)
 

sgoldste01

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How strong is that cross member? Ever see it deflect or dent/bend?
No way. That tubular sub-frame is probably one of the strongest components on the car. Definitely more solid than the pinch welds. No deflection or bending detected. However, I thought my timber was a better choice back there than using a 3rd jack stand because the timber distributes the load over a greater surface area than a jack stand would.

But now I've got a forum member who is questioning that choice, so I'm looking for more opinions. Jack stands are cheap enough, so I'm not opposed to buying another set and using one stand under the rear sub-frame instead of using the timber. I just can't convince myself that doing so would be better for the car (or my own safety).
 

sgoldste01

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I will read the wrench's documentation when I get home. But if the main concern is exceeding the max torque loading of the wrench, I don't think I've done that. This wrench is rated 25 to 250 lbs, and I know I'm not strong enough to break a bolt that's been tightened to 250 lbs. The 89-lb lugs on the VW wheels are about the highest setting I've ever tightened or loosened. Although I did once remove the wheels on my wife's van after it had been worked on by a garage, and those lugs were more stubborn than my VW lugs. But again, they couldn't have been stubborn to the tune of 250+ lbs, or I wouldn't have ever gotten them off myself.
For what it's worth, the torque wrench's documentation says nothing about not using the tool to loosen. So that's why I didn't know any better (I'm fanatical about reading product documentation).

Regardless, your advice is probably correct, so I'll use my breaker bar for loosening the lugs from now on. I'll also loosen the torque wrench's setting to 0 during storage.

Thanks for the tip.
 

timwagon

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For what it's worth, the torque wrench's documentation says nothing about not using the tool to loosen. So that's why I didn't know any better (I'm fanatical about reading product documentation).

Regardless, your advice is probably correct, so I'll use my breaker bar for loosening the lugs from now on. I'll also loosen the torque wrench's setting to 0 during storage.

Thanks for the tip.
I always use one of those X-type lug wrenches to get the bolts off. Lots of leverage, and they spin pretty easily once loosened. Just remember to put a piece of tape around the end you're using, so you don't have to check each time.
 

specsalot

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Haven't tried jacking up mine yet. I'm not a fan of jacking the fronts one side at a time after already having the back up at one central point. It really depends on what weight distribution looks like during the process. To me it makes more sense to stabilize the front then lift the back. Probably not enough room to do it that way unless you have a low profile jack.

When I loft my Porsche, I have to use a low profile floor jack to get my bottle jack powered jack stands under the lift pads. One lift elevates both wheels on a side. Lifting the second side has to be done slowly and carefully.

All lift work requires patience. Double / Tripple checking like others have posted. I keep a jack under the car as back up. Many times I'll also put a wheel under the body near the pinch weld before I crawl under.
 
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sgoldste01

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I'm not a fan of jacking the fronts one side at a time after already having the back up at one central point.
I admit that it's an interesting process. What you don't like about the process is actually an advantage, if you ask me.

With the rear of the car held up by one central point, this has the advantage of allowing the car to rock side to side as you lift first one, then the other side of the front end. To me, this is a beautiful way of getting all four corners of the car up in the air. Instead of putting a lot of force on the pinch welds, the car rocks on top of the timber I have holding up the center of the rear as the front end comes up.

Perhaps I'm not explaining it clearly, but to me, this actually looks more secure and less stressful on the car than using both rear pinch welds to get the back end up off the ground.
 
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jasong70

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Thanks - good to know

For the block of wood, you could cap it with a 1x6 or 2x4 or whatever. You mentioned it was too short anyway. If available, a 1/8" plate steel on the top would be perfect.

No way. That tubular sub-frame is probably one of the strongest components on the car. Definitely more solid than the pinch welds. No deflection or bending detected. However, I thought my timber was a better choice back there than using a 3rd jack stand because the timber distributes the load over a greater surface area than a jack stand would.

But now I've got a forum member who is questioning that choice, so I'm looking for more opinions. Jack stands are cheap enough, so I'm not opposed to buying another set and using one stand under the rear sub-frame instead of using the timber. I just can't convince myself that doing so would be better for the car (or my own safety).
 

sgoldste01

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Thanks - good to know

For the block of wood, you could cap it with a 1x6 or 2x4 or whatever. You mentioned it was too short anyway. If available, a 1/8" plate steel on the top would be perfect.
Yes, I've thought of capping the timber with another piece of lumber (with the grain pattern going perpendicular to the main timber's grain pattern) as a way of not only providing me extra clearance beneath the car, but also to address the other forum member's concern about the timber splitting under the weight of the car.

I wouldn't use something hard like steel to cap the timber, since that would probably scratch the black paint off the sub-frame tube. I like using a softer material like wood.

I don't worry about this with regard to where I support the front of the car using jack stands, since the aluminum components aren't painted.
 

specsalot

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...Perhaps I'm not explaining it clearly, but to me, this actually looks more secure and less stressful on the car than using both rear pinch welds to get the back end up off the ground.
I figure you're doing it in a way that makes the most sense. I don't think anyone (with a brain) cuts corners getting their cars up in the air. If you have access to banding material, it might be a good idea to run some band around the wood blocks at the ends. This would probably prevent splits or unexpected failures.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/st...ing-products/material-handling/ecatalog/N-9ui
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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I rotated my tires front to back last week. After much thought as to the approach :eek: all I did was used my floor jack at the front pinch welds. I lifted one side high enough to also lift the rear wheel off ground. I placed one jack stand under the front contol arm bracket (where it ties to frame) and lowered the jack slightly to rest the car lightly on stand with jack still in place and rear wheel still off the ground. I then spun the bolts off both wheels and swapped tires. Hand started all bolts. Spun bolts back on and used torque wrench to tighten to 90 ft-lbs. It took longer to figure out how I was going to do the job than it took doing it.:D

Oh and the pinch welds look the same - no damage from jacking. My jack does have a large rubber pad in the center.

I saw no reason to cross rotate the tires as my MXV4s are perfectly flat across the tread at 16k miles. I monitor tread wear and the difference front to back was slightly less than 1/32". If my tire wear is normal, I usually rotate when the front to back wear difference is about 1/32". Maybe next time I'll take it to Costco but I hate the wait as their tire centers are always very busy. It's usually 2+ hours at Costco or 20 minutes at home.
 

sgoldste01

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This is a fine approach if you're just lifting one side of the car. The process I've been discussing is to raise all four wheels at the same time.

While the owner's manual says to rotate the tires without switching the side of the car they're mounted on, I prefer to cross the rears to the front. I like the idea of getting each tire on all four corners of the car over time (unless the tires are directional, of course).
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Ah but why complicate things.:D

I use to cross rotate but never saw any benefit if my tires had uneven wear patterns. If I couldn't solve the wear pattern issue, my tires would continue to wear out faster than normal no matter how I rotated them.

Here's perhaps the reason why VW recommends front to back rotation.
The front tires wear quicker than the rears. Because of this, it's necessary to rotate the tires front-to-rear several times during their life cycle to 1) equalize tread wear and 2) maximize the life of the tires. This is what we refer to when we say "rotate the tires." Rotating generally does not refer to either of the following actions:
  • Exchanging tires on the same axle — for example, swapping the rear tires left to right
  • Criss-crossing tires — moving a tire from the passenger's side rear to the driver's side front
There's a good reason for this. Tires develop wear patterns as they age. Some of these patterns are tied to the suspension system and the alignment. That's why we keep the tires on the same side of the car.
 

sgoldste01

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Here's another reason why I like raising the car in the air with three support points instead of four:

As most people know, if you put (for example) a four-legged stool/chair on an uneven floor, the stool/chair rocks because one of the four legs isn't touching the floor. Use a three-legged stool, on the other hand, and all three legs will touch the floor, even if the floor is uneven.

My garage floor and driveway are not perfectly flat. I'm guessing this is true for most people. If I try supporting my car using all four pinch welds, it stands to reason that only three of the pinch welds are holding the load, and one pinch weld is probably floating above the jack stand (or nearly floating, without holding its fair share of the car's weight). By using my three-point support method, I know all three points are distributing the car's load appropriately.

So I don't like the process of getting the car up onto all four pinch welds. But I also don't like the way the car's weight would be distributed to those four pinch welds after the car was fully raised above an uneven surface.
 

amstel78

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Finally got around to rotating the tires last weekend also. What I did was to put a floor jack with a large block of wood directly under the rear subframe crossmember. Once the rear end was in the air, I put two jackstands under the rear designated pinch weld points and slowly lowered the car back down.

Since I only had 2 jack stands, I lifted the front one tire at a time using the large aluminum crossmember that the A-arms attach too. Interestingly enough, when jacking one side of the front, the other side would raise as well.

Took me about 20 minutes to do a forward-cross rotation with this method.
 

sgoldste01

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Amstel, at first I considered placing the floor jack directly under the subframe crossmember as you describe. But my jack wouldn't allow it. My jack's handle would hit my rear bumper when I tried raising the jack, so I couldn't lift the jack handle high enough to get the jack to rise. And that's with a Golf, which doesn't have as much of a rear overhang as a JSW.

So instead I jack up one side of the rear using the pinch weld, then slide my timber post under the rear subframe crossmember. This works very well for me, provides the three-point support advantages I described earlier, keeps me from having to buy a new low-profile jack, and keeps my car off the pinch welds while it's sitting on the jack stands. So the only time I'm using the pinch welds is when raising or lowering the car with my floor jack, at which point I use a hockey puck on my floor jack.
 
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