prep for TB change on 2000 A4 TDI

OK, I have to do the timing belt on my 2000 A4 Jetta TDI
This was previously my cousins car and I’m thinking ahead ……
Found out from him it was about 6 to 8 years ago the timing belt was changed when the engine was redone after his wife had the timing belt go sideways on her driving down the road (yes, major engine work)
I am on borrowed time in my book, 4 separate drivers and this car had set nearly 2 years until it came into my possession and I have had it for a year and a half, not sure of mileage on the timing belt …. but thinking its around 60K miles on this belt
I have the Metalnerd deluxe timing belt tool kit for the A3 http://www.metalnerd.com/catalog/product/faf38c31091949daaa91c12b03e41eeb and I see there are some different tools in the kit for the A4 http://www.metalnerd.com/part-mna4kit7pc---a4nb-timing-belt-tool-kit
Can someone tell me the must have tools for the A4 timing belt job that are not in the A3 kit ?
I have no problem buying Metalnerd’s tools, I have a tool bag of them besides the Timing Belt tools, injector slide hammer/puller, the bent fuel line nut wrench, triangle socket for the injection pump, strut tool for shocks ………
figure on this parts kit
https://www.idparts.com/alh-timing-belt-kit-038109119m-p-449.html
going to add the coolant option while I am ordering, might as well change it while the system is open for the water pump change
and the thermostat kit
https://www.idparts.com/alh-thermostat-kit-038121121-044121113-p-5578.html
figure at minimum these 3 tools on top of my A3 timing belt tool kit
https://www.idparts.com/long-reach-cam-lock-for-alh-p-6277.html
https://www.idparts.com/injection-pump-camshaft-locking-pin-alhbewbrm-p-2761.html
https://www.idparts.com/crankshaft-lock-a4-alh-p-2960.html
so lets hear if I’m forgetting something ………

I think you can get by with what you have if you have a 6mm drill bit to lock the pump. A3 uses a 14mm.

You'd have to make a hole in the shroud to knock the cam sprocket off if you don't have the puller.

I just finished up my TB job on my Golf this weekend.
The specific tools for the ALH it looks like you have covered. The tools in the A3 kit are likely different sizes. That extended cam lock I dunno if I'd go for that vs the standard one, it's only 7 bolts to take the valve cover off and you get to inspect and see what's going on. Also makes it really easy to tell if you're at TDC.

I didn't need anything crazy for tools to get to those "hard to reach" valve cover bolts...a wobble extension and a universal joint did the trick.

Some will say the crank lock isn't necessary, and I agree as I've done one without the crank lock and 1 job with. I liked have the crank lock on as when I was stretching and pulling the belt all around during installation it didn't allow the crank to wander from the timing mark on the flywheel.

The instructions on the forum are great and very thorough, I printed them out and put them in a binder.

The one thing that I forgot this time from last time was the small upper roller...install the TB first then install this roller. I battled getting the cam sprocket on the cam during the belt install on the for about an hour before I stepped back, had a beer, and assessed the situation.

I also used that kit from IDparts. I used the same kit on my last TB change, unfortunately the WP seal to the block failed at 60k...so I had to do a premature timing belt job

KLXD said:

You'd have to make a hole in the shroud to knock the cam sprocket off if you don't have the puller.

Click to expand...

Yup I thought I was going to have to do this as well, luckily the kit I used from a local TDI member was the Metalnerd kit!

You need the A4 cam lock. The Metalnerd version still requires removing the valve cover. The extension on it reaches inside the #5 cam bearing cap.

The A3 lock would require removing the cap. Works fine if you're ok with doing that. OP didn't say if he has the one shown in the kit or the older straight one.

My usual comments about the instructions on this site. They are great except:

1) Don't rotate the engine by using the cam sprocket tool. Use the crank bolt. The belt is designed to drive the cam and pump at 1/2 crank speed NOT to move the crank against compression at 2:1.

2) Move the pump SHAFT CW to advance.

yeah, crank lock is a must, even on the A3 AHU & I do not plan on taking chances w/ the A4 ALH

this one or ….
https://www.idparts.com/long-reach-cam-lock-for-alh-p-6277.html

this one ?
https://www.idparts.com/metalnerd-long-reach-cam-lock-for-alh-p-1910.html

and should have this ….
https://www.idparts.com/metalnerd-camshaft-sprocket-puller-a4-alh-p-2063.html

have 1/4” rod stock on hand, I can size a lock rod for the injection pump sprocket

any thoughts on seal/gasket for the water pump to insure it does not fail ?

need to dig ….. pretty sure I have a 19mm 12 point socket for turning the crank

kokodog said:

yeah, crank lock is a must, even on the A3 AHU & I do not plan on taking chances w/ the A4 ALH
this one or ….
https://www.idparts.com/long-reach-cam-lock-for-alh-p-6277.html
this one ?
https://www.idparts.com/metalnerd-long-reach-cam-lock-for-alh-p-1910.html
and should have this ….
https://www.idparts.com/metalnerd-camshaft-sprocket-puller-a4-alh-p-2063.html
have 1/4” rod stock on hand, I can size a lock rod for the injection pump sprocket
any thoughts on seal/gasket for the water pump to insure it does not fail ?
need to dig ….. pretty sure I have a 19mm 12 point socket for turning the crank

Click to expand...

The sprocket puller makes life really easy...but the instructions tell you to just tighten that nut until the sprocket breaks free...I don't advise that. Tighten that puller down, then give a slight rap with a ball peen hammer. It will pop right off and not stress it.

I can't give any advice on the deep reach cam locks. At the point I'm due for a TB, I like to inspect under the valve
Cover.

I'm guessing if you're using your own sources drill rod for the IP lock pin, you're good on a lathe or have access to a grinder. That slip fit of the pin is under .0005". There is a drill bit that works well for the job, obviously using the shaft side of it.

As far as making the water pump to engine gasket last longer, that's a tough one. I cleaned up the interfacing bore with some fine grit and emery cloth. Still though, my o ring was FLAT when I took it out. You could use a light coating of rtv on the seal, that may help prolong it.

I've used "regular" (cheap/multi-purpose) 3-jaw pullers on the cam sprocket (and loosened bolt) with zero issues. I typically buzz them down with a small 3/8 impact until the sprocket pops loose. Be sure your particular puller engages the pulley well, or don't use it at all. I have a Gear-wrench branded one that worked well on my Golf ALH...

A4 has an o-ring on the water pump.

Good advice on how to operate the puller.

The pullers sold for this job grab the sprocket on the inside of the holes. I'd hesitate to use one that grabs the O.D.

KLXD said:

A4 has an o-ring on the water pump.

Click to expand...

Yes it does, that's what I meant when I said gasket. My mistake. Still, a bit of rtv...my o ring went out at 60k

A couple of Tb jobs ago I bought that deep cam lock. I didn’t really need it, but it’s a tool and I like to “collect” tools. I already had that little flat piece of metal, but the metalnerd deep cam lock is very well made.

Just because you use it doesn’t mean you can’t pull the valve cover. I pulled the cover anyway and put that lock on the cam and there is no shimming. It is very exact.

KrashDH said:

Yes it does, that's what I meant when I said gasket. My mistake. Still, a bit of rtv...my o ring went out at 60k

Click to expand...

OK, a Q-tip & a light coating of RTV in the O-ring groove to help keep it sealed

Static o-rings (which this is) seal from the pressure. The more pressure the tighter they seal, provided they don't extrude through the gap.

It's a mistake to try to interfere with that; you're promoting a leak instead of preventing it. Just make sure the bore is clean going in (clean up any corrosion outboard of the sealing surface) and use some water-soluble lube so it doesn't get damaged when you insert it.

The last pump I changed out that leaked failed on the shaft seal at about 80k miles since the last time it had been done.

Genesis said:

Static o-rings (which this is) seal from the pressure. The more pressure the tighter they seal, provided they don't extrude through the gap.

It's a mistake to try to interfere with that; you're promoting a leak instead of preventing it. Just make sure the bore is clean going in (clean up any corrosion outboard of the sealing surface) and use some water-soluble lube so it doesn't get damaged when you insert it.

The last pump I changed out that leaked failed on the shaft seal at about 80k miles since the last time it had been done.

Click to expand...

under ideal conditions your statement is correct,

but I have yet to see ideal conditions working under the hood

Ok, I was watching this video for a reference against my experience doing the belt on my '99 A3

what is this guy doing torquing to a value then a 90 degree rotation / quarter turn ???

is this to stretch the one time use bolts ??

if it is ....... that shows me the pure arrogance of the engineers that designed this engine


https://youtu.be/zE9jnA-7nNM

That’s how a stretch bolt works, and why it’s a one time use bolt.

The timing belts have a time limit as well as a mileage limit, if I remember right it’s a 5 year lifespan.

kokodog said:

Ok, I was watching this video for a reference against my experience doing the belt on my '99 A3
what is this guy doing torquing to a value then a 90 degree rotation / quarter turn ???
is this to stretch the one time use bolts ??
if it is ....... that shows me the pure arrogance of the engineers that designed this engine
https://youtu.be/zE9jnA-7nNM

Click to expand...

Arrogance of the engineers? I would say that you need to study up on fastener technology. Torque turn is about accuracy, not arrogance.

I've changed numerous TBs at 10 years. In fact, I just changed one a few days ago that was at 104k miles and just shy of 10 years old.

The only place I use RTV is at the "corners" of the valve cover and sparely at that. I've never had a WP or Coolant Flange to leak.

whitedog said:

Arrogance of the engineers? I would say that you need to study up on fastener technology. Torque turn is about accuracy, not arrogance.

Click to expand...

Exactly right. If used correctly, stretch bolts are WAY more accurate than the torque wrenches that are used by most mechanics. As well, they are less likely to back out. This "technology" used by these bolts is a permanent deformation along the stress-strain curve based on the material and minor diameter of the thread pitch. At a given torque, the bolt will permanently yield. If you have decent feel, you can feel this happening when you give the bolt the "extra rotation" it calls out on the torque spec

AndyBees said:

I've changed numerous TBs at 10 years. In fact, I just changed one a few days ago that was at 104k miles and just shy of 10 years old.

The only place I use RTV is at the "corners" of the valve cover and sparely at that. I've never had a WP or Coolant Flange to leak.

Click to expand...

Guess you're lucky you've never had a WP seal leak. I've had it leak through the shaft seal before (100K TB kit from the PO), then the WP shaft actually fractured. This last one I removed was flattened beyond usefulness, yet the WP was still in good shape.

That's the thing about forums, you'll always see something you haven't before. I didn't use RTV on the o-ring on this new WP seal, I just cleaned up the bore and hoped that it will do it's job.

Although, I did break the cam cap off to replace the cam seal and i used a really thin film of rtv where that cap "captures" the cam seal. Seems like it's a wash between people doing that and people not, but it isn't going to hurt

YES! - Arrogance of the engineers

I have worked around so many over the decades and 99 & 44/100ths percent are arrogant and beyond. Now those not in that group were wise beyond the total of the other group combined. I saw the larger group get schooled by old men that could barely write their name and never finished high school (some never made it to high school) , damn they made fools of those idiots.

You see, just because someone gives a signed piece of paper to someone that has spent about $100,000.00 to get that paper ……. that does not prove true intellect or wisdom.

Like it or not the bean counters run the company, and somewhere it is the same deal at a supplier, corners are cut, and on down the line …… usually lowest bidders get the sale, we the consumers get the shaft. Save me the B.S. about Quality Control ISO 9001 standards, it still happens.

In a perfect world those arrogant engineers could be right, but I do not see that happening in 10 lifetimes. SH*T happens, everyday to everyone, all you have to do is open your eyes and see it everywhere.

Using a Q-tip to apply a thin coating (that you can barely see) of RTV to a machined groove is not going to cause a failure, if anything it will fill in the tooling “chatter” marks, helping the o-ring to do the job it is supposed to.

I have had more water pumps fail at the shaft seal and or bearing than any other possible point of failure, other than a good belt and getting the tensioner set correctly there is little that I can do to prolong the life of the pump.

Stretch bolts fall under the purview of Quality Control ISO 9001 standards, you have a 50/50 chance ……… either they were made correctly or they were not……. and that is assuming the block material into which they are threaded is good. I have snapped 12mm shaft bolts w/ a stubby (3”) Snap-On ratchet and Murphy jumped out of thin air to open a can-o-whoopazz on me and make my life miserable beyond your wildest dreams, I have been schooled by the meanest teachers in the school of hard knocks of life and have the scars and lessons to prove it and sometimes the cost was more or less than a college degree depending on ones view …….

ASSUME NOTHING! LIFE CAN PROVE YOU WRONG

Just twiddling my thumbs ...

kokodog said:

YES! - Arrogance of the engineers
I have worked around so many over the decades and 99 & 44/100ths percent are arrogant and beyond. Now those not in that group were wise beyond the total of the other group combined. I saw the larger group get schooled by old men that could barely write their name and never finished high school (some never made it to high school) , damn they made fools of those idiots.
You see, just because someone gives a signed piece of paper to someone that has spent about $100,000.00 to get that paper ……. that does not prove true intellect or wisdom.
Like it or not the bean counters run the company, and somewhere it is the same deal at a supplier, corners are cut, and on down the line …… usually lowest bidders get the sale, we the consumers get the shaft. Save me the B.S. about Quality Control ISO 9001 standards, it still happens.
In a perfect world those arrogant engineers could be right, but I do not see that happening in 10 lifetimes. SH*T happens, everyday to everyone, all you have to do is open your eyes and see it everywhere.
Using a Q-tip to apply a thin coating (that you can barely see) of RTV to a machined groove is not going to cause a failure, if anything it will fill in the tooling “chatter” marks, helping the o-ring to do the job it is supposed to.
I have had more water pumps fail at the shaft seal and or bearing than any other possible point of failure, other than a good belt and getting the tensioner set correctly there is little that I can do to prolong the life of the pump.
Stretch bolts fall under the purview of Quality Control ISO 9001 standards, you have a 50/50 chance ……… either they were made correctly or they were not……. and that is assuming the block material into which they are threaded is good. I have snapped 12mm shaft bolts w/ a stubby (3”) Snap-On ratchet and Murphy jumped out of thin air to open a can-o-whoopazz on me and make my life miserable beyond your wildest dreams, I have been schooled by the meanest teachers in the school of hard knocks of life and have the scars and lessons to prove it and sometimes the cost was more or less than a college degree depending on ones view …….
ASSUME NOTHING! LIFE CAN PROVE YOU WRONG

Click to expand...

Dude, you need to get off your high horse here. I am and work with a LOT of very good engineers that aren't arrogant at all. Actually some of the nicest people I know. I also work with some sub par ones, that have the egotistical attitude. There are people that are good at what they do and people that aren't.

Life can teach you lessons and you learn a lot from experience, but the schooling gives you the toolbox to apply to real world. Nothing in the real world is the same as what you saw in the texbooks, but if your methodology is solid, you will solve the problem.

You mention that you see a lot of the "old men" school the "younger guys" but in fact with technology moving at the pace it is, I've seen the opposite as well. The lessons learned is a great one for young engineers to learn for their elders, but if you can adapt those lessons learned and move forward, everyone wins. I've seen older engineers stuck in their ways, refusing to believe that something will work, from their past experience. Hell, I've designed tooling that the entire senior engineering staff told me would NEVER work, yet after it was approved and it moved into fabrication and production, was the best tool the machinists and technicians had ever used for the job. The nice thing about newer engineers is they are still a bit naive. They don't have the "this isn't going to work" mental block right out of the gate. It really leads to very creative designs. Whether they can actually be fabricated or not, that's where real world experience, or the experience of their predecessors come in.

I completely agree because you have a signed piece of paper doesn't make you good at something. just because you turn a wrench on your car doesn't make you a good mechanic...do you know the theory behind your actions is what matters.

Quality control is a job done by HUMANS. Guess what, humans make mistakes. Standards are in place for a reason. Specs are in place for a reason. To be successful 99.5% of the time. Are there going to be escapes? Yes. Are corners going to be cut? Some people will. But with those standards in place, all of this is traceable back down to the ground that the material was taken from. Processes are in place for safety and success...not to make your personal life miserable.

I can't let you sit here and bash engineers as I chose that as my career path because guess what...I like pushing the boundaries, failing fast, and coming up with solutions. The difference I have with a lot of engineers is I had experience in machining, programming, fabricating, welding, Quality Control, before I even got my first engineering job. That's pretty rare now and I'm still pretty young, but it's the path I chose

It sucks you have such a sour taste towards the people in the career path, because look around your house, hell, your life. Everything you consume has been invented by someone, degree or not.

Oh and to finish up, your statement about TTY bolts is completely wrong. 50/50 chance of failure? If so of the thousands I've installed, some used multiple times, zero have failed. They are inspected under the ISO standard, which has to meet an engineering drawing. That design has been scrutinized, analyzed, and proven to be successful. If there was a 50/50 chance of it being made incorrectly and failing, no way companies would be using them. It would be a liability to all the car manufacturers.

As I mentioned, there is that minuscule percentage that get missed in quality. That 1 bolt that snaps because of improper metal composition, fitup because a tolerance stack was wrong, etc.
I've broken and bent plenty of things. Snapped bolts, torn belts, bent brackets. For 99% of the time, it was my fault and I am not shy about admitting it.

KrashDH said:

Dude, you need to get off your high horse here. I am and work with a LOT of very good engineers that aren't arrogant at all. Actually some of the nicest people I know. I also work with some sub par ones, that have the egotistical attitude. There are people that are good at what they do and people that aren't.
Life can teach you lessons and you learn a lot from experience, but the schooling gives you the toolbox to apply to real world. Nothing in the real world is the same as what you saw in the texbooks, but if your methodology is solid, you will solve the problem.
You mention that you see a lot of the "old men" school the "younger guys" but in fact with technology moving at the pace it is, I've seen the opposite as well. The lessons learned is a great one for young engineers to learn for their elders, but if you can adapt those lessons learned and move forward, everyone wins. I've seen older engineers stuck in their ways, refusing to believe that something will work, from their past experience. Hell, I've designed tooling that the entire senior engineering staff told me would NEVER work, yet after it was approved and it moved into fabrication and production, was the best tool the machinists and technicians had ever used for the job. The nice thing about newer engineers is they are still a bit naive. They don't have the "this isn't going to work" mental block right out of the gate. It really leads to very creative designs. Whether they can actually be fabricated or not, that's where real world experience, or the experience of their predecessors come in.
I completely agree because you have a signed piece of paper doesn't make you good at something. just because you turn a wrench on your car doesn't make you a good mechanic...do you know the theory behind your actions is what matters.
Quality control is a job done by HUMANS. Guess what, humans make mistakes. Standards are in place for a reason. Specs are in place for a reason. To be successful 99.5% of the time. Are there going to be escapes? Yes. Are corners going to be cut? Some people will. But with those standards in place, all of this is traceable back down to the ground that the material was taken from. Processes are in place for safety and success...not to make your personal life miserable.
I can't let you sit here and bash engineers as I chose that as my career path because guess what...I like pushing the boundaries, failing fast, and coming up with solutions. The difference I have with a lot of engineers is I had experience in machining, programming, fabricating, welding, Quality Control, before I even got my first engineering job. That's pretty rare now and I'm still pretty young, but it's the path I chose
It sucks you have such a sour taste towards the people in the career path, because look around your house, hell, your life. Everything you consume has been invented by someone, degree or not.
Oh and to finish up, your statement about TTY bolts is completely wrong. 50/50 chance of failure? If so of the thousands I've installed, some used multiple times, zero have failed. They are inspected under the ISO standard, which has to meet an engineering drawing. That design has been scrutinized, analyzed, and proven to be successful. If there was a 50/50 chance of it being made incorrectly and failing, no way companies would be using them. It would be a liability to all the car manufacturers.
As I mentioned, there is that minuscule percentage that get missed in quality. That 1 bolt that snaps because of improper metal composition, fitup because a tolerance stack was wrong, etc.
I've broken and bent plenty of things. Snapped bolts, torn belts, bent brackets. For 99% of the time, it was my fault and I am not shy about admitting it.

Click to expand...

I have no high horse, but what I do have is great clarity,

I see and foresee much more than nearly everyone around me, (yes, it pizz’s everyone off)

and attempting to clearly explain things to “educated” people……..

will test your ability to resist beating the living hell out of them

great clarity enables me to conceive a idea, see how it needs to be made, finished and used properly in my mind, it is not compartmental thought it is the entire project in the same thought

You were fortunate to gain real life experience before becoming a engineer, it made you a better engineer if you did not realize it

I still stand by my assessment of arrogant engineers, there are too many, as far as a sour taste …. that is just for the arrogant ones, the good ones make up for the difference

QC is a 50/50 deal, either it is done correctly, or it is not, when it is done correctly you can achieve 99% good quality - I’ve seen too many lazy people that refuse to just do their job correctly, it’s like “really people ! whats so difficult about just doing your job, you are getting paid to do it right”

"I see and foresee much more than nearly everyone around me, (yes, it pizz’s everyone off)"

Not an arrogant statement at all.

Your initial statement was regarding TTY bolts and arrogant engineers. I fail to see the correlation.

Touche!

whitedog said:

"I see and foresee much more than nearly everyone around me, (yes, it pizz’s everyone off)"

Not an arrogant statement at all.

Your initial statement was regarding TTY bolts and arrogant engineers. I fail to see the correlation.

Click to expand...

"there are none so blind as those that will not see"

You have yet to show how specifying TTY fasteners equates to arrogance.

Stating that there's a 50/50 chance that they were made incorrectly without documentation is absurd.

How can we see when you haven't shown us?

KLXD said:

Touche!

Click to expand...

you mean that you are touchy .....

What I cannot see is what KLXD said. How does specifying TTY fasteners equate to arrogance?

I have feelings either way on engineers other than I like to their trains. But I'm really curious about the question we have asked you about bolts and arrogance.