Mazda SkyActiv Diesel Engine

How many of those other diesels can you actually buy stateside today?

Yeah..I'm not really worried yet.

Do you know how long people have been talking about a Mazda 6 diesel? Or a Subaru diesel? A Honda Accord diesel? And since Mazda doesn't sell a 6 wagon here now, what makes you think they'd bring in a wagon with a diesel?

Think about it. We don't get a Polo at all, much less a diesel. Or a Tiquan diesel. Or a Passat wagon (at all).

Worry about resale? Not likely. There aren't any competitors out there.

there aren't any competitors stateside now, but they will be here soon. I mean, you'll be able to buy one of these two, essentially, inside of a year from now. That is significant.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.....

bhtooefr said:

Because American drivers expect gasser-like power delivery.
And, because high RPMs mean higher horsepower - and no matter how much you regear a diesel, it'll still be slower than a gasser with a lot more horsepower.
In other words, torque isn't everything. Horsepower is useful too.

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At the point that you design a diesel with 14:1 compression you have effectively designed an engine that is within reach of using high-octane gasoline fuel. True, any gasser with that compression ration DOESN'T have a turbo, but it's still not that far fetched to say that Mazda is essentially creating a gasoline engine stout enough to use diesel fuel. Switch to Gasoline Direct Injection to avoid pre-ignition and I bet that engine runs fine with high horsepower output.

NickBeek said:

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.....

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yes, i subscribe to the same saying, however i think the whole car market is going to change drastically, for the betterment of diesels, of course. I am asking for everyone's opinions of what the market will be like in a year or two.

Actually, the Japanese-spec version of the gasoline direct injection SkyActiv engine is also 14:1 compression.

US version is 12:1 due to our crap fuel.

bhtooefr said:

Actually, the Japanese-spec version of the gasoline direct injection SkyActiv engine is also 14:1 compression.

US version is 12:1 due to our crap fuel.

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well yes and no, the 14:1 will run on us/canada fuel but only premium unleaded

http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/10/partial-skyactiv-tech-debuts-on-2012-mazda3.html

Mazda made the decision to make the US sky gas motor regular unleaded (88-89 octane) friendly to make it more attractive to NA drivers

If I had to chose between a Chevy and a Mazda diesel I would go with the Mazda. Just based on handling and fun to drive factor alone. I also believe Mazda’s Skyactiv technology is impressive. I am not sure how far they will go with it but their i-star/stop combined with regenerative breaking and the use of supercapacitors to capture that energy is all very impressive. It might be awhile for all these things to make it under the hood.
I kind of wonder what the other automakers are thinking about Mazda’s Sky-D and the low compression ratio. We will have to wait and see if anybody else will jump ship.

newbie

bhtooefr said:

Actually, the Japanese-spec version of the gasoline direct injection SkyActiv engine is also 14:1 compression.

US version is 12:1 due to our crap fuel.

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It's not crap fuel per se, but North Americans' aversion to pony up to pay for premium. You can't even get anything less than 95 RON Super (~90 AKI (RON+MON)/2) in North American terms) in most parts of Europe.

And I thought the NA-spec Sky-G would have a compression ratio of 13? OK, I see now - the first US Sky-G is castrated further to 12:1. Doesn't bode well for the US Sky-D...

Don't forget the Nissan Maxima V6 diesel that came out last year as well!

89greendiesel said:

yes, i subscribe to the same saying, however i think the whole car market is going to change drastically, for the betterment of diesels, of course. I am asking for everyone's opinions of what the market will be like in a year or two.

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...and that's what we're telling you.

It WILL be the Germans, and MAYBE Chevy, and POSSIBLY Mazda.

I would love to see 2,3,4, or a dozen competitors in the diesel vehicle realm. The problem is car manufacturers have been jerking our chain for so long that I and many others have become weary of the claims.

For the last several years I was anxiously waiting for the Subaru boxer diesel to make it's way here. I even communicated several times with Subaru on the subject. They continually stalled and would not commit to a date. My last communication, last year, clearly said I will be purchasing a new diesel vehicle in the next year whether it be a Subaru or another brand. I got no reply, so I now drive a 2011 VW TDI...

TDIMeister said:

And I thought the NA-spec Sky-G would have a compression ratio of 13? OK, I see now - the first US Sky-G is castrated further to 12:1. Doesn't bode well for the US Sky-D...

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The fancy 4-2-1 headers necessary for 13:1 don't fit into the Mazda3.

NickBeek said:

I would love to see 2,3,4, or a dozen competitors in the diesel vehicle realm. The problem is car manufacturers have been jerking our chain for so long that I and many others have become weary of the claims.

For the last several years I was anxiously waiting for the Subaru boxer diesel to make it's way here. I even communicated several times with Subaru on the subject. They continually stalled and would not commit to a date. My last communication, last year, clearly said I will be purchasing a new diesel vehicle in the next year whether it be a Subaru or another brand. I got no reply, so I now drive a 2011 VW TDI...

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can't blame you for choosing to buy instead of waiting, that is for sure. I guess i just want more selection and something that will tow respectably.

I was very close to buying a used TDI myself but finding a decent one for the price i found my car for was impossible. I still get very good fuel mileage and only have 2k in the car. with many hard parts replaced. I just couldn't justify the cost benefit ratio in favor of a VW.

I know the car companies have been jerking us around for a while now.......but i'm still hopeful. When the new diesels come, i do think that VW will have to work quite a bit harder for its money and market share that it currently has let alone gain more.

Doesn't sound like any of the cars you mentioned would be any better at towing than a VW Jetta/Golf. Except the F150, but Ford has explicitly said they are not putting a diesel in that truck. I agree that it's a shame. I'd love a Toyota Hi-Lux diesel if anyone would bring it over here.

Touareg, Mercedes ML or GL, BMW X5 are probably the best diesels out there for towing until you get into the Cummins and F350 territory.

Even if these other manufacturers come out with diesels, VW has a 40 year head start. What I'd like to see is a 2.0L 3 Series, a 4 cylinder C-Class, or an Audi A4 with a TDI (all with manual transmissions, please). But we can't even seem to get that. BMW sells the 5 series with a 2 liter 4 cylinder diesel in Europe. What a great combination. But the small engine/big car configuration doesn't get any traction here. That's why I hang on to my Mercedes.

Agree, IBW. The logical small-size packages are C200D's, A4 TDI's and 320d's, leaving the the E350D, A6 V6 TDI and 535d to run the larger pack.

My CRD Liberty was a pretty good towing machine but the implementation by Chrysler/Jeep with the Ram 1500's RFE545 transmission was done poorly with an incredibly cheap plastic stator'ed torque converter. After two warranty replacements of the TC, I didn't feel as though I should have to buy my own $600+ billet TC to remedy a design that Jeep should have known not to produce in the first place. Jeep goofed on certifying the wrong driveline combo...the 6-speed and the excellent VM Motori R428 CRD would have been an amazing combo...sadly that one never arrived in N.A.

89, my gut feel is that you may be waiting a long time for the kind of 'selection' you seem to want. Maybe a few of us here are more than a little jaded, but the automotive news space is littered with the dead bodies of announced clean diesels from non-German auto makers...I'm from Missouri whenever I hear some announcement of a great new diesel coming out that will "make all others pale in comparison" in North America. Notwithstanding some great diesels out there around the world, they aren't here (N.A.) -- only the Germans have put their money where their mouth is and made them available...and even then, they're sometimes off their mark from prior announcements.

Mein zwei pfenning,
D.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Doesn't sound like any of the cars you mentioned would be any better at towing than a VW Jetta/Golf. Except the F150, but Ford has explicitly said they are not putting a diesel in that truck. I agree that it's a shame. I'd love a Toyota Hi-Lux diesel if anyone would bring it over here.

Touareg, Mercedes ML or GL, BMW X5 are probably the best diesels out there for towing until you get into the Cummins and F350 territory.

Even if these other manufacturers come out with diesels, VW has a 40 year head start. What I'd like to see is a 2.0L 3 Series, a 4 cylinder C-Class, or an Audi A4 with a TDI (all with manual transmissions, please). But we can't even seem to get that. BMW sells the 5 series with a 2 liter 4 cylinder diesel in Europe. What a great combination. But the small engine/big car configuration doesn't get any traction here. That's why I hang on to my Mercedes.

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I have considered the trio of german cars you have up there but i can't find them in my price range. I have also considered making my own...mainly a 3bt into a toyota tacoma sr5, but its not like the gasser v6 they have in there is a bad one so it would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

What i would really like is a 4.0l L4 which is why i considered the cummins 3bt to swap into something. Cummins will make you an adapter plate for absolutely anything. just tell them what you have.

Regarding money, keep in mind that i can buy an '08 f350 crew cab w/8ft bed, 70k mi, 4x4, etc with some tasteful mods for about 27-28k. I never realized how useful trucks are until i had one. This is what dissuades me from buying something like the v10 tdi touareg...the cost. Parts are plentiful for my f350 and relatively cheap too.

the mazda might do alright with towing a 500 lb trailer with a couple of motorcycles or even a few thousand lb trailer. It is supposed to pave 300+ftlbs which is just under what my f250 has right now. Mazda towing will probably be limited by suspension like most everyone knows here.

DnA Diesel said:

Agree, IBW. The logical small-size packages are C200D's, A4 TDI's and 320d's, leaving the the E350D, A6 V6 TDI and 535d to run the larger pack.
My CRD Liberty was a pretty good towing machine but the implementation by Chrysler/Jeep with the Ram 1500's RFE545 transmission was done poorly with an incredibly cheap plastic stator'ed torque converter. After two warranty replacements of the TC, I didn't feel as though I should have to buy my own $600+ billet TC to remedy a design that Jeep should have known not to produce in the first place. Jeep goofed on certifying the wrong driveline combo...the 6-speed and the excellent VM Motori R428 CRD would have been an amazing combo...sadly that one never arrived in N.A.
89, my gut feel is that you may be waiting a long time for the kind of 'selection' you seem to want. Maybe a few of us here are more than a little jaded, but the automotive news space is littered with the dead bodies of announced clean diesels from non-German auto makers...I'm from Missouri whenever I hear some announcement of a great new diesel coming out that will "make all others pale in comparison" in North America. Notwithstanding some great diesels out there around the world, they aren't here (N.A.) -- only the Germans have put their money where their mouth is and made them available...and even then, they're sometimes off their mark from prior announcements.
Mein zwei pfenning,
D.

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I was also very close to buying a Jeep liberty crd, or a grand cherokee crd because of the type of vehicle it was, towing capacity, and the efficiency of a diesel engine. I'm sorry to hear about your TC problem with the CRD. I guess i would like to probably throw a 6 speed behind it as well, not sure how i would get the bell housing but it would be so sweet when you have it that it would be worth the six months of down time it would take to get it done.

89greendiesel said:

I was also very close to buying a Jeep liberty crd, or a grand cherokee crd because of the type of vehicle it was, towing capacity, and the efficiency of a diesel engine. I'm sorry to hear about your TC problem with the CRD. I guess i would like to probably throw a 6 speed behind it as well, not sure how i would get the bell housing but it would be so sweet when you have it that it would be worth the six months of down time it would take to get it done.

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Agreed. I had been holding out faint hope that Jeep would bring a 6-speed CRD Wrangler to N.A. but sadly they didn't. I (and probably a few folks here) would have been all over that setup!

Regards
D.

This is just my thought, but...

I think the answer of the exhaust manifold fitment is just a canard, something made up by the marketing department. From the engine engineering point of view, here's what's more likely going on. The current trend for emissions control is what's called a "close-coupled" three-way catalyst. This places the cat as close as possible to the exhaust ports so that heat loss is minimized in order to get the cat up to light-off temperature as quickly as possible. Almost ALL of a car's HC emissions take place during the cold running phase before the catalyst lights-off; beyond that, conversion efficiencies are almost 100% and therefore the remaining 95% of the drive cycle is pretty much irrelevant to HC emissions.

A long primary header is precisely the opposite of what you would want to achieve from the standpoint of placing the cat as close as possible to the exhaust valve. I showed here that the Japanese JC08 test cycle is relatively undemanding compared to the US' FTP75+US06+SC03. Also, Japanese regulations limit HC emissions at 0.024 g/km, whereas US T2B5 is 0.015 g/mile (converted, 0.0093 g/km). Despite the different test cycles, strictly on a quantity basis, T2B5 is still over 60% more stringent than the Japanese limits.

Mazda must have been extremely optimistic to assume that the design for the Sky-G's exhaust manifold and catalyst, which could meet Japanese regulations, could also meet T2B5 with only trivial changes.

I don't buy for a second the fitment argument. No OEM company can be so short-sighted not to develop one component like an exhaust manifold for a forecasted model application. I can go out and buy an aftermarket header for a Mazda3, which still allows me to retain a catalyst, and be done with it.

TDIMeister said:

Almost ALL of a car's HC emissions take place during the cold running phase before the catalyst lights-off.

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I always was under the impression that is why remote start systems are illegal in most of Europe: Because they idle the engine from a cold start, the engine heats up slower under idling than if you would just start the engine and drive -> enormous HC emissions.

If that is correct (I'd guess it is), how are remote start systems legal in the US and Canada?

(I sent some friends a video of my rental Impala's remote starter once... most of them just didn't believe me something like that existed.)

The right regulatory hand doesn't talk to the left enforcement hand. We have specific anti-idling laws in many jurisdictions, but they rarely get enforced. Remote start systems do not fall under emissions legislation. Another loophole.

German_1er_diesel, I too am am surprised remote start is legal on new cars in the US but the surprise is dampened somewhat by my familiarity with the govt. bureaucratic system to which TDIMeister refers.

GM has been running a television commercial which show a woman remotely starting her car via her phone after boarding an airplane.

I have now read and heard of so many diesels that our going to change the market, open things wide open... I don't even think I wan't a diesel anymore.

I hope the Mazda and Cruze diesels are designed for mileage and not sacrifice mileage for torque and horsepower as VW has done. My ALH Beetle would get 50 mpg on a trip most of the time. Mazda and Cruze need to match that and do it a price that makes sense to the buyer. Pricing a model that sells at $19000 as a gasser and $25000 as diesel doesn't pass the long term savings test. I am glad to see more diesels on the market but I will be keeping my gas powered car until the value of the new diesels prove to be true considering purchase price and mileage.

I will believe this when I see it on a transport truck pointed towards a dealer. Until then, much of this is pure conjecture at best.

booty said:

I hope the Mazda and Cruze diesels are designed for mileage and not sacrifice mileage for torque and horsepower as VW has done. My ALH Beetle would get 50 mpg on a trip most of the time. Mazda and Cruze need to match that and do it a price that makes sense to the buyer. Pricing a model that sells at $19000 as a gasser and $25000 as diesel doesn't pass the long term savings test. I am glad to see more diesels on the market but I will be keeping my gas powered car until the value of the new diesels prove to be true considering purchase price and mileage.

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i wholeheartedly agree with you on all points. I would much rather have fuel mileage than hp/tq.

Marley said:

I have now read and heard of so many diesels that our going to change the market, open things wide open... I don't even think I wan't a diesel anymore.

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that makes me

DnA Diesel said:

Agreed. I had been holding out faint hope that Jeep would bring a 6-speed CRD Wrangler to N.A. but sadly they didn't. I (and probably a few folks here) would have been all over that setup!

Regards
D.

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that would be fun indeed!