TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

TornadoRed said:

Between the Formula M ESP 5w40 and the VAG-spec 5w30, I would go with the 5w40 if I had a common-rail TDI engine.

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Thanks !!! =)


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Todd,

With 28,000 miles when this sample was taken, you'd still be seeing some break in wear. Still , the levels of Fe/Al/Cu are elevated. I think the culprit here is the VERY low viscosity - 8.6 Cst at 100C is in the 20wt range. These VW 507.00 oils usually test out as a borderline 30/40 weight. The measured fuel dilution of 1.0% (if accurate) isn't enough to cause this big a drop in viscosity. I'd almost bet there's more fuel than that...

I'd do a short run of 5000 km to flush out the engine, then change the oil and filter again. Run this oil for 10,000 km and retest. If things aren't back to normal you may have a problem here.

TS

TooSlick said:

Todd,

With 28,000 miles when this sample was taken, you'd still be seeing some break in wear. Still , the levels of Fe/Al/Cu are elevated. I think the culprit here is the VERY low viscosity - 8.6 Cst at 100C is in the 20wt range. These VW 507.00 oils usually test out as a borderline 30/40 weight. The measured fuel dilution of 1.0% (if accurate) isn't enough to cause this big a drop in viscosity. I'd almost bet there's more fuel than that...

I'd do a short run of 5000 km to flush out the engine, then change the oil and filter again. Run this oil for 10,000 km and retest. If things aren't back to normal you may have a problem here.

TS

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Thanks for the response. I guess Volkswagen's 15k km service interval is as stupid as it sounds, given the way it dumps fuel in there for regens. Good advice, I will flush at 5 or even sooner and run the next batch for 10 and take another sample.

The metals that turned up in this test as well as the condensation in the charge air cooler that produced a couple of very hard starts have destroyed my confidence that this car will be with us long-term. I was pretty sure that I could run it for 12-15 yrs and 400k, but the engineering and technology are looking a bit shaky when you can't drive in cool weather without the risk of hydrolocking your engine. Part of the reason I ran the oil for 15k km was as an experiment since I thought this was a long-term car, and our usage is anything but short-trip stop-and-go. I am really considering trading it while it still has most of its value and I can pass on a year or so of warrantied driving to the next owner.

If you can figure out the fuel dilution issue I think you'll be fine.

TS

Rotella T6: Any Good BRM cam UOAs?

I have been running T6 for 2 years because my car was consuming D1/TDT, and because the car starts/runs better on the T6. Doesn't burn a drop of the stuff. I searched through most of this thread from about 2011, and all of the BRM UOAs I found showed higher iron than I was hoping, about 2x the PPM of D1/TDT/Schaeffers over a given OCI.

I like the T6, but if these cams are wearing down faster using it, I need to go back to Mobil. Maybe it's that Mg-dominant detergent package over a 10000 mi OCI? Maybe it's still too thin? Can wear rates be reduced with shorter OCI?

Cakins,

The only way to really tell is to pull the valve cover gasket and do a physical inspection. I've literally reviewed hundreds of TDI analyses over the past fifteen years and my impression is that all the API/CJ-4 synthetics are performing very well. Most if not all are using roughly equal amounts of Mg and Ca, as detergent/dispersant additives. This allows you to get a TBN > 10.0 while still holding to the 1.0% sulfated ash limit that's part of the spec.

TS

TooSlick said:

Cakins,

The only way to really tell is to pull the valve cover gasket and do a physical inspection. I've literally reviewed hundreds of TDI analyses over the past fifteen years and my impression is that all the API/CJ-4 synthetics are performing very well. Most if not all are using roughly equal amounts of Mg and Ca, as detergent/dispersant additives. This allows you to get a TBN > 10.0 while still holding to the 1.0% sulfated ash limit that's part of the spec.

TS

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Thanks for the response, TooSlick. I'm a little afraid to check the camshaft, but I'll be pulling the VC before my timing belt so I can have the R&R done at the same time if necessary.

I brought up the Mg sulfonate (?) detergents because I read that they retain TBN well but they won't neutralize the weaker acids like Ca sulfonate will, resulting in acidic oil and inactive detergent showing a false high TBN in tests that use stronger acids.

I really like the T6 in my car and don't want to switch! My BRM runs so well with the T6 that I'm willing to "waste good oil" to keep using it at reduced OCIs. I am speculating/hoping that higher Fe I saw in the few T6-BRM UOAs (compared to TDT) may be due to some corrosion on 10000 mile OCIs, which can be resolved by reducing the OCI by a couple thousand miles. If it's because of the slightly thinner viscosity, I am simply using the wrong oil and have to go back to the TDT, even though I don't like it in my BRM.

You should test the used oil from your engine. In all likelihood it will show a normal level of iron wear.

A 10,000 mile oil/filter change interval is quite conservative, when using these CJ-4 oils and 15 ppm, ultra low sulfur fuel (including biodiesel blends). That's just not an issue anymore. The quality of your air filtration and your soot levels will have more of an impact on Fe levels than will the service interval.

Do cj4 oils prevent more soot build up? If they do prevent or control soot build up wouldn't that potentially benefit dpf or is soot build up based on other factors? Also does soot build up in engine trigger more dpf regeneration?

OK - Got the second UOA back and while things look good in some areas - Blackstone noted a bit of concern regarding the rising Aluminum levels. I've read through the last 10 or so pages of this thread and it appears that there are a number of the '12 - '14's seeing a similar condition (elevated Aluminum and potassium early in their life) and mine appears to be the mildest case of it that I see reported here.
Any thoughts / comments / things that I should consider (other than being a bit more disciplined and getting the car in AT 10K instead of slightly past).
This is my wife's kid-runner-mobile. We live in a semi-rural area so our "stop and go" driving is slightly less so than someone who lives in down town Philly or something. The run from the house to school is 1/2 mile of dirt road, then about 10 miles of pavement with 3 stop-signs and 2 traffic lights... This trip gets made no less than twice a day and some times 3+ cycles. Any chance that this would play any part in the readings?
Oil changes were at the dealership - I requested that they pull the oil mid-stream - and I have no reason to believe that they didn't. Perhaps next time I'll pull it from the dipstick tube.
Anyway - thanks in advance for any comments....
Nathan
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Nate,

You're correct that we're seeing this wear pattern quite a bit. Perhaps Blackstone is on to something with their comments? It's counter intuitive for engine wear to increase as miles accumulate during engine break-in. I think what you're seeing must be considered normal for this engine varient.

TS

I recently decided to start getting oil analysis done on all of my vehicles to hopefully catch any issues before they become a problem. Touareg was next up for an oil change, so here's the results of the sample:



So far this vehicle has been changed at 5000, 10000, 15000, and this one was done at 25000. Dealer has done all previous changes, but I have decided to change myself and also switch to Pennzoil Ultra Euro L 5w30 as I can get it for $8/qt...meets approval for all my TDIs and also the Jeep diesel.
Wear metals concern me, but I know everything is probably still getting fully broken in. Will change again in 5000 miles.

Crn3,

Engine is still wearing in. So all you can tell is how the oil is holding up over the 10k service interval. I'd suggest having the TBN tested a few times and you can go from there. The flashpoint and viscosity of your sample are fine, suggesting very little fuel dilution. Soot at 0.3% is also normal.

It can take up to 50,000 miles for the wear pattern to stabilize in these newer TDI engines.

TS

Hello, I recently purchased a 2004 Passat GLS TDI and am new to the tdiclub.com site. The person I bought the car from said to only use the Castrol Professional 5w30 oil which they had a quart of in trunk and showed me. After reading extensively, I learned that this Castrol product is the one the VW dealer sells which meets VW 505-01 standard, however, I've learned that many on this site highly recommend, in various forums, the use of either Mobil 1 TDT or Shell Rotella T6, both in 5w40 weight since they do far less damage to the camshaft compared to the 5w30 505-01. I chose to use the T6. The car had 162k miles on it when I bought it and the records show the last time the oil was changed was at 150k miles, 8 months ago and it was very black so I changed it right away. I just checked the oil level after only about 200 miles since I changed the oil & filter and was SHOCKED to see how black it is already! My question is, and I hope this is the best forum to ask this, how could it get so black so quick? The last oil change at 150k miles was performed at a auto service place and only says 'Oil & Filter Synthetic, LOF-101' -- not sure what LOF-101 is and came up empty when searching the internet on it. Any insight as to why my oil is so black so quick is greatly appreciated! Also, I had planned to do 10k mile oil change intervals with the Shell Rotella T6, but now wonder if I should change sooner since it's so dark so soon. Thank you.

Hi Scott, the oil in these engines will turn black almost immediately and the observed color is useless as an indicator of oil condition. You`ll soon get used to it!
The M1 TDT and T6 oils have served me well.

So you can go 10,000+ MILES between oil changes on ALH engines? Damn. Just did my first oil change, Rotella T6 5w40.

scott-ohio said:

Any insight as to why my oil is so black so quick is greatly appreciated! Also, I had planned to do 10k mile oil change intervals with the Shell Rotella T6, but now wonder if I should change sooner since it's so dark so soon.

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Engine oil that is doing its job holds soot in suspension, instead of allowing it to settle or collect in narrow passages. Oil that is not black is probably not doing its job.

So long as the percentage of soot is not too great, and the viscosity is not too high or low, and the additive levels are still sufficient, then the oil can continue to do its job. 10k miles is the normal oil change interval for a synthetic heavy duty engine oil. An oil with a viscosity of 5w40 is best; that seems to be so even when it meets only the API or MB specifications and not the VAG specification, though the argument is never settled.

Turbo van,

If you're using alternate fuels like WVO or B100 I'd employ used oil analysis testing to determine optimum service intervals. If you're using up to a B20 blend you can use established service intervals of 10,000 miles/1 year.

TS

Thanks shuswap, TornadoRed, and TooSlick! I really appreciate the feedback from each of you. (TooSlick) I'm not using WVO, and I presume B100 is some other alternative, based on you including it with WVO, but plan to read up some on them to see what they're all about and see if it's available in my area. Regarding diesel up to B20, I'm not sure how to determine what the diesel fuel in my area is but will look closely at the pump to see if it displays B__. Years back, I owned an `84 Rabbit diesel and an `85 (i believe that was year) VW Dasher wagon diesel. WOW, these engines sure have come along way! To get a boost back then on those engines I would turn off the AC That was my so called turbo! Anyhow, I am all diesel now. I own a 1997 Dodge Ram 2500 with the Cummins 12 valve and recently bought a 2010 BMW X5 35d -- last year, the little lady said she wanted an SUV so I set out to do extensive research because I knew SUVs don't get good MPG's and everything kept pointing back to the X5. The power is just incredible in this thing! Was able to locate this 2010 with 123k miles on it for $19,000, so I jumped on it. Only thing I don't like is it doesn't appear to have an oil dipstick and I've always liked ability to check oil condition between index finger and thumb while smelling it too, but after reading some of your comments, maybe that's not telling me all that much anyways! I'm also very impressed with the get up and go from this little 2.0 turbo in my new `04 Passat! My, how things have changed regarding diesels. My old ones used to be putt-putts and spew black clouds of smoke at drivers behind me. Now, they're quiet and haul ass! Well, that mechanical 12 valve Cummins isn't very quiet, but the Passat and X5 are! Many thanks again gents, it's very kind of you to take the time to explain that the black appearance of my oil is nothing to worry about afterall. I already knew that detergent oil is supposed to collect and suspend particles which get removed with oil during drainage, but never remember the oil in my old VW diesels getting so black so quick so apparently these newer generation diesels are different in this regard too. Take good care and I look forward to following this and other forums here at the tdiclub, very glad I found this site! Ciao-4-now, Scott

TooSlick said:

Turbo van,

If you're using alternate fuels like WVO or B100 I'd employ used oil analysis testing to determine optimum service intervals. If you're using up to a B20 blend you can use established service intervals of 10,000 miles/1 year.

TS

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Thanks.

Castrol LL03 vs. Mobil 1 ESP

I've had good test results (OA) while using Castrol's LL03. It's been in the car from mile 1 to 130K miles. I decided to switch to Mobil 1 ESP at the 130K mark. Roughly 137K miles now. I had an unfortunate turbo failure last week. Car is still being worked on. Could be completely coincidental, but....

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge on used oil tests between these two oils? I've heard good things about Mobil 1 ESP and I use Mobil Full Synth in my wife's Honda. I know guys that are satisfied using other brands of 507 spec oil. I'm leaning toward going back to Castrol. I have two full bottles of Mobil leftover. What about mixing the two at the next oil change? I don't have any other use for this type of oil and would hate to throw it out.

MacBuckeye said:

I've had good test results (OA) while using Castrol's LL03. It's been in the car from mile 1 to 130K miles. I decided to switch to Mobil 1 ESP at the 130K mark. Roughly 137K miles now. I had an unfortunate turbo failure last week. Car is still being worked on. Could be completely coincidental, but....

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge on used oil tests between these two oils? I've heard good things about Mobil 1 ESP and I use Mobil Full Synth in my wife's Honda. I know guys that are satisfied using other brands of 507 spec oil. I'm leaning toward going back to Castrol. I have two full bottles of Mobil leftover. What about mixing the two at the next oil change? I don't have any other use for this type of oil and would hate to throw it out.

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Well, if it's any consolation I have not read in any forum including this one that Mobil1 ESP has led to early turbo failure. I would not shun the oil if I was you. Mobil1 makes a very fine product as do many others. I would just get two more liters of Mobil1 ESP and use it up then switch to another brand if you so desire. No science here just my thoughts. If Mobil1 ESP led to early turbo failure I'm sure someone would have raised a red flag by now.

Both the Castrol and the Mobil 1/ESP are generating comparable results in the DPF equipped engines. Castrol has been a long term VW/Audi and BMW supplier. Porsche and Mercedes factory fill with Mobil 1 formulations. It's more a business arrangement than anything else.

The additive chemistries of these two VW 507.00 oils are somewhat different. So I'd probably pick up a few more quarts of the ESP and use it up. I'd have no reservations using any Mobil 1 product - and I've been an Amsoil dealer for over thirty years.

TS

Always appreciative of your fair minded analysis TS.

When you guys go into the post office to mail out your completed kit and they ask if there's any liquids in it, do you lie? Or tell them is oil? I've been told that if you say its oil, it will cost you like $30 to mail it in the continental US...

JDSwan87 said:

When you guys go into the post office to mail out your completed kit and they ask if there's any liquids in it, do you lie? Or tell them is oil? I've been told that if you say its oil, it will cost you like $30 to mail it in the continental US...

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It should not be a problem, Blackstone lab explains this on their website...

vwracer said:

It should not be a problem, Blackstone lab explains this on their website...

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Score!! Found it (the letter stating its 100% OK to ship) printed it shipping it later!!! Thanks!!!

JDSwan87 said:

When you guys go into the post office to mail out your completed kit and they ask if there's any liquids in it, do you lie? Or tell them is oil? I've been told that if you say its oil, it will cost you like $30 to mail it in the continental US...

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You will have no problem with the post office. It's like 3 bucks to send it.

Need some help here...Not sure how to move forward from here.

Steve,

Did something mechanical happen between 44k miles and 68k miles, like an inter cooler freeze up? Your used oil samples are getting progressively thinner. This leads me to believe your average level of fuel dilution is much higher than what you're seeing here. Did you go for a long drive before taking this sample? Have you done any significant mods to the engine?

TS