Hardened PD cams

Quick question: Does anyone know FOR SURE that the stock PD cams are just surface hardened, or are they hardened deeper?

the three we have pulled lately appear to be surface hardened only, due to the rapid deterioration with incorrect oil being used.

i have one in right now that i am writing a case study for a trade magazine on showing the effects of a non 505.01 oil in a PD. customer swore by Amsoil to start with, now swears at it.

What about PD cams failing with exclusive 505.01 usage? What about Gmark who has ran a PD cam on delvac for what, like 90k and the cam still looks new?

Dont cams and lifters fail in ALH motors too?

VFchicago88 said:

What about PD cams failing with exclusive 505.01 usage? What about Gmark who has ran a PD cam on delvac for what, like 90k and the cam still looks new?

Dont cams and lifters fail in ALH motors too?

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Good questions, but irrelevant to the reason for my post. I'm afraid that this will sidetrack the purpose of this thread.

Thank you.

Isn't the problem also in the lifters? It seems to me that both parts are involved in the problem and solution.

Powder Hound said:

Isn't the problem also in the lifters? It seems to me that both parts are involved in the problem and solution.

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too much pressure is the main cause, in addition to other issues caused by high engine loads, lube failure, hardening issues, etc.

VFchicago88 said:

What about PD cams failing with exclusive 505.01 usage? What about Gmark who has ran a PD cam on delvac for what, like 90k and the cam still looks new?

Dont cams and lifters fail in ALH motors too?

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90k is not much on a PD, although i have seen cam failures earlier than that.
Delvac, Rotella Synthetic, or even the ones running *gasp*AMSOIL will likely see failures at some point, a lot of how the failures occur is due to the RPM range they are operated in, IMO.

ALH failures are much less common as the PD's, at least what i have seen. i cannot name a single ALH that we service with less than 225k with a cam or lifter failure, but i can name several PD's. i still cant believe the one i had in this week gave me the fit it did during diagnosing it, but my head was not in the right place lately getting our new facility built.

not saying a failure wont happen on 505.01 either, cause the pressures they have on the cam lobes and lifters are incredible(y stupid to be designed like that, IMO)

imma gonna leave it at that, for there are plenty of discussions about this problem on this board, and none have turned out pretty lately.

LOTS of 02' model year cam/lifter failures. I've done 40 sets in 2 1/2 years. Plenty of the other years too around the 200-225K mark.

whitedog said:

Quick question: Does anyone know FOR SURE that the stock PD cams are just surface hardened, or are they hardened deeper?

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I have no idea.

Wondering the reason for the question, though. Are you seeing odd wear?

jasonTDI said:

LOTS of 02' model year cam/lifter failures. I've done 40 sets in 2 1/2 years. Plenty of the other years too around the 200-225K mark.

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How many of those cars ran Mobil 1 5w30 aka "What oil do you use?", "I only use synthetic oil in my TDI".

Today I was crusing down the autobahn in a 2002 Passat PD130 TDI with 320,000km's on it, funny thing is has never had a cam or lifter issue...yes it has only run VW approved oils. 505.01 is the oil of choice with fixed service intervals from what I was told due to oil consumption from high speed driving that prohibits the more expensive 506.01/507.00 usage.

DB

50% dealer 5w40, local dealer knows the right oils. The rest either rotella, delvac, or amsoil.

FC735 said:

the three we have pulled lately appear to be surface hardened only, due to the rapid deterioration with incorrect oil being used.

i have one in right now that i am writing a case study for a trade magazine on showing the effects of a non 505.01 oil in a PD. customer swore by Amsoil to start with, now swears at it.

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Joey, I visited your website and there is NOTHING there about TDIs! What's up with that?

WAY off topic and I'm hoping to stay ON topic here folks.

All I want to hear about is facts regarding the depth of the hadrening on the PD cams.

Oils, folllowers, driving styles, the latest exploits of Paris Hilton... Please leave them elsewhere. If I'm asked to stay on topic, I do, and I hope that others will do the same.

So, the original question is are the PD cams surface hardened, or are they hardened deeper?

whitedog said:

WAY off topic and I'm hoping to stay ON topic here folks.

All I want to hear about is facts regarding the depth of the hadrening on the PD cams.

Oils, folllowers, driving styles, the latest exploits of Paris Hilton... Please leave them elsewhere. If I'm asked to stay on topic, I do, and I hope that others will do the same.

So, the original question is are the PD cams surface hardened, or are they hardened deeper?

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i will cut this one later tonight to verify, but i am positive that they are simply surface hardened.

it would be very costly and downright impractical to have a fully hardened cam shaft. the engine vibrations would shatter it in a heartbeat.

FC735 said:

i will cut this one later tonight to verify, but i am positive that they are simply surface hardened.

it would be very costly and downright impractical to have a fully hardened cam shaft. the engine vibrations would shatter it in a heartbeat.

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That would be great. If you could let me know, I'd appreciate it.

If you look at the ends of the cams, you can see exactly how deep they are hardened. On the dwell portion, they are not flame-treated very deeply. On the lobe surfaces, the hardening goes through to a circle nearly the depth of the dwell portion of the camshaft.

That's on topic...

As for the lifters, they are heat treated after grinding. I think they have nitrided the surface for additional wear characteristic.

I am currently experimenting with some PD lifters to see what I can find out. VW's $30 per lifter is a bit hard to swallow...

Franko6 said:

If you look at the ends of the cams, you can see exactly how deep they are hardened. On the dwell portion, they are not flame-treated very deeply. On the lobe surfaces, the hardening goes through to a circle nearly the depth of the dwell portion of the camshaft.

That's on topic...

As for the lifters, they are heat treated after grinding. I think they have nitrided the surface for additional wear characteristic.

I am currently experimenting with some PD lifters to see what I can find out. VW's $30 per lifter is a bit hard to swallow...

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Thanks Frank. What are your thoughts on polishing the cam?

We look forward to the results of your follower testing.