Slow down shudder (AGAIN)

pm22071985

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Location
...
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I think DMF=dual mass flywheel

yeah I've heard the rolling shudder can be IQ, IP, or DMF related.

I wish I knew more, I've been following this thread and searching for answers but got nothing.
 

pm22071985

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Location
...
TDI
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Well, I'm gonna follow your lead.

I've already started to block it out.

Just figured I'd follow this thread until one of the many guru's tells me why this happens
 

NB_TDi

Vendor
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Location
NB, Canada █♣█
TDI
2014 Jetta SE
Might as well.

It's been tossed around about what it is. My local VW shop says, it just happens. They don't care, so I don't care. :)
 

Ski in NC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Location
Wilmington, NC USA
TDI
2001 Jetta ALH 5sp stock
My 2001 does it every time I coast a few mph along my downhill gravel drive in neutral. As soon as I stop the car, it goes back to a smooth idle. Done it since I bought it new, at least I think so. Minor annoyance. I'll worry about it if something gets worse or the car won't go. Based on these posts, it must be intentional?? I don't hear it if the stereo is up.
Nice stereo.

-Eric
 

PaddyO

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Location
Fredrickson, WA
TDI
98 Bug
Well, here's my experience. My NB had a problem with shudder/judder ever since I bought it in October, and was steadily getting worse. It always happened decelerating from about 6mph to zero. Upon stopping, it would shake like it was misfiring and then even out after a second or two. Sound familiar?

Fast-forward to November. When I bought the car, I knew I was going to need a new clutch, so I made an appointment and drove down to Portland to have the upgraded flywheel/clutch installed by one of the excellent wrenchers in that area (I didn't discuss this with him beforehand, so his name is omitted, for now). During one of the myriad of questions I posed, I asked him about doing the EGR mod or removing it completely. He said rather than doing that, just remove the vacuum line and stick a golf tee in the hose to block it off, thus effectively neutralizing the EGR.

After driving home, I performed the minor operation. It took a day for me to realize that my judder/shudder went away. (Note: my car has been chipped, and the company that did the job must have included a CEL fix for disconnecting the EGR) After 4 weeks, I have yet to experience it again. Not one hiccup, whatsoever, even in very cold weather. Could this be the answer? It's either that or the clutch, which was the G20/Sachs combo, but I'm don't think that was the answer. Needless to say, I'm very happy to be rid of that annoyance.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
PaddyO said:
Well, here's my experience. My NB had a problem with shudder/judder ever since I bought it in October, and was steadily getting worse. It always happened decelerating from about 6mph to zero. Upon stopping, it would shake like it was misfiring and then even out after a second or two. Sound familiar?

Fast-forward to November. When I bought the car, I knew I was going to need a new clutch, so I made an appointment and drove down to Portland to have the upgraded flywheel/clutch installed by one of the excellent wrenchers in that area (I didn't discuss this with him beforehand, so his name is omitted, for now). During one of the myriad of questions I posed, I asked him about doing the EGR mod or removing it completely. He said rather than doing that, just remove the vacuum line and stick a golf tee in the hose to block it off, thus effectively neutralizing the EGR.

After driving home, I performed the minor operation. It took a day for me to realize that my judder/shudder went away. (Note: my car has been chipped, and the company that did the job must have included a CEL fix for disconnecting the EGR) After 4 weeks, I have yet to experience it again. Not one hiccup, whatsoever, even in very cold weather. Could this be the answer? It's either that or the clutch, which was the G20/Sachs combo, but I'm don't think that was the answer. Needless to say, I'm very happy to be rid of that annoyance.
Answer is; you got rid of the dual-mass flywheel. That fixed it.
 

jesseh1970

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2005
Location
Washington State
TDI
New Beetle, 99, Black
1999 new beetle 4/99 to be exact, bought the car with 80000 miles, car has done this since i have owned it, 114000 miles now.

i have done performance injectors, van aaken box, fuel filters, mafs from MB 112 and 113 engines, new vw maf, g20 fw and new clutch, replaced by aluminum 240mm fw and clutch for 6 speed, o2m 6 speed conversion and just this week, a rebuilt "stock" injection pump.

just got vag com last night, set timing so it is "dead on", problem is still there.

Im new to vw diag. and vag com so im going to check the iq and try to adjust.

DMF is not the issue, it is in the tune, as it is directly related to speed sensor signal.

off to figure out vag com.....
 
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jesseh1970

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2005
Location
Washington State
TDI
New Beetle, 99, Black
IQ is high 2s to 3 warm at idle, i did notice while driving that IQ goes to 0 while coasting in gear clutch engaged, using 0 fuel.....while coasting with clutch disengaged and engine drops to idle rpm the IQ bounces from 0 to 4-5ish..... like the ecu is trying to cut fuel for decel engine braking but doesnt know that the clutch is disengaged.

ecu should know not to cut fuel below a certain rpm but maybe it relies on a clutch switch?

also could someone enlighten me on how to change adapts for IQ, i want to try this before i hammer on the brand new pump.
 

jesseh1970

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2005
Location
Washington State
TDI
New Beetle, 99, Black
All right, got the shudder taken care of!!!!!! figured out how to get in the adaptation.

IQ was at 2.6 with lights off and hvac fan on "2"
adjusted adaptations from 32768 to 32715 and that brought the IQ up to 3.6-3.8

didnt pay attention to IQ while coasting in gear, im sure it still cuts fuel to 0.

while coasting with clutch in rpms come down to 903 and are rock solid, this car would shudder every time you rolled with clutch disengaged, even backing out of the garage.

its like driving a new car!!! now hopefully my mileage comes back to where it should be, best i ever got was 45 and for the last year its only been getting 35, then the pump finally gave up just before thanksgiving.

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences and information
Jesseh1970
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Add me to this list!!!!!. My car does it all the time. Stalls sometimes(ROLLING AND STOPPED). Pain in the butt!!!!!. SOMEONE PLEASE HELP US.
Charger, the first thing to do is scan the car with VCDS and see where your IQ is now - if you are up for a drive to cambridge, I'm more than happy to scan your car and set your IQ for you - for my standard fee - a medium black tim hortons. :D
 

ta79pr

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2005
Location
Lexington, SC
TDI
02 TTQ (BEW)
I was really concerned that it was the DMF failing, because if I pushed the clutch in the vibration would dissipate slightly. However, I am convinced that is only because slight difference was due to less things being vibrated by the engine's (what I will call for descriptive purposes) misfiring due to the slow down shudder (SDS).
I shopped for new SMF clutch kits and was going to order one, but I decided to disconnect the vehicle speed sensor (VSS). I did so and she slows down perfectly, she sounds and feels like a sewing machine. Acceleration from 2nd gear is kinda pulsed I guess because the ECU does not know we are moving. I am going to drive to work without the VSS today to verify that the SDS is indeed completely gone. I will then focus back on what seems to me to be a software fueling issue - relating to the following conditions: (1) vehicle slowing down from 10 mph to almost zero, (2) the brake on, (3) no acceleration pedal pressure, i.e. idle speed.
I will log IQ v. requested IQ, i.e. channel 15.
My thoughts are that perhaps the VSS is glitchy, but the speedo seems to be accurate and steady at that 10mph to 0mph curve. I guess I should check fuel temperature. But there must be some table in the ECU that has fueling while slowing down while in idle per MPH. I image that table needs tweaked.
Fuel is a function of MAF, perhaps it is that... I am just thinking out loud.
 

chargersrt10

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
Location
Mississauga, Ontario
TDI
00 Mk4 Jetta TDI ALH
Thank you for the tip. I do have "Ross Tech VAG-COM". my IQ is about 3.8. It does jump slightly when "stumbling". I am to the point that I'm about to put a freshly rebuilt IP in, however I know that wont solve the issue. I am going ECU hunting on the weekend. A Supplier in Toronto has a bunch of ECU's. I'm gonna try the Swap and Test with a few of them. i keep getting Eprom errors. Forget the code P??????
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Rather than swap the ECU, try adjusting your IQ a little higher - 6.0 or so - that's what made my shudder tolerable in my 99.5.

I recall that the shudder got much better when I swapped out my SMOG .216's to Bosio PP520s
 

ta79pr

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2005
Location
Lexington, SC
TDI
02 TTQ (BEW)
I tried the following experiment - for whatever its worth...
I bought a new MAF (aftermarket). Verified that IQ is 4.0 @ idle when warmed up.
I disconnected the speed sensor from the gearbox/differential. I hooked it up to my drill to simulate vehicle speed.
Idle is rock solid at various simulated speeds UNTIL the brake is pressed.
So, if no acceleration pedal request, and speed is at or below approximately 14kph, and the brake pedal is pressed - the idle turns to crap (acting as if a misfire).
Therefore, atleast for me, I can conclude my DMF is fine. I would buy bosio or sprints if I thought that would fix it. This must be software based thinking it needs aggressive fueling while slowing down - I guess in case you punch it. Note, the wheels were never actually spinning in this experiment.
Here are the vag-com logs, it seems that engine speed gets knocked down 30 rpm during the simulated SDS:
 
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Votblindub

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Location
NY
TDI
MK4 Jetta Wagon
I'm going to sign up for updates on fixes for this, as well. I've had a couple judders/shudders here and there, but it's never been a serious issue. I'd rather not have it, obviously. I have a 2002 jetta, auto, ~135kmi on it. Mine usually will have a bit of shudder when I let the gas pedal go, I dont think pressing the brakes makes a difference in mine. I'll keep an eye on it though. Are there any things to look for first to help diagnose the problem? I think I can find somebody who can help me with VAGCOM and looking at the car, but I'd like to have a list(however small or extensive) of items to look out for. So far it seems like looking at the IQ numbers when cold/warm and idle and running seems to be something to look into, but what else is there?
 

chargersrt10

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
Location
Mississauga, Ontario
TDI
00 Mk4 Jetta TDI ALH
Well Guys and Gals. I changed my ECU over the weekend. Problem Solved!!!! ALL SYSTEMS GO!!! Why didn't I think of this earlier? (Kicking myself in the ass)
I would like to thank "Pinknoise" for the ECU suggestion. You saved me $2000+. Was going to put an Injector Pump in the car.
 

ta79pr

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2005
Location
Lexington, SC
TDI
02 TTQ (BEW)
That makes total sense. I had my 98 TDI (ALH) chipped by RocketChip at a local GTG - it completely fixed my hot start issue, but had no effect on the SDS. Does any guru know what map/table needs tweaked?
 

Seatman

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Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Location
Scotland
TDI
2014 Skoda rapid elegance 1.6 cr tdi
Just for the sake of information that may or may not help, I have a late 2000 golf with the ALH and it's always been smooth a silk, before and after mapping etc.

Anyway my ecu part number is 038 906 012M

So if it is indeed an ecu issue I can at least vouch for that one.

It's an immo 2 can bus one too.
 

turbocharged798

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May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Its the DMF. Mine did it for the longest time and no matter how high I cranked up the IQ it would still shudder. New SMF and it never shuddered since. The DMF gets wonky and screws with the crank readings and confuses the ECU.
 

Seatman

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Apr 23, 2010
Location
Scotland
TDI
2014 Skoda rapid elegance 1.6 cr tdi
I would agree but there's folk with smf's having the problem, that's what gets me. Besides my dmf was knackered but never had any shudder slowing down, that's usually when you put the thing under strain giving the car throttle that you get that dmf judder?
 

turbocharged798

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Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Mine would shudder when slowing down and later on it would shudder all the time. You would be sitting at a light and all of a sudden it would start shuddering out of nowhere.
 

Seatman

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Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Location
Scotland
TDI
2014 Skoda rapid elegance 1.6 cr tdi
I'm surprised I didn't get any from mine, it was totally knackered but I never got any shudder, just a woop woop noise at idle. Stupid invention, it's like a backwards step imo lol
 

d9

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2000
Location
NC USA
TDI
01 Jetta
Wow... This is a new development on mine..
418,000 miles so far and I thought I had done something while replacing the clutch.

So the bottom line fix here is the ECU?
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
It's a software thing. The ECU is not very tolerant of lower Idle Injection (IQ) Quantity settings, coupled with larger or worn injector nozzles.

The fix is to adjust IQ to a higher number, and the shudder gets better or goes away.

Going from 3 to 5.5 fixed my ALH jetta back when I had it.
 
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