struikie
Veteran Member
can't say it's a huge difference...
might be a bit smoother but not significantly unfortunately...
JW
might be a bit smoother but not significantly unfortunately...
JW
INA: TDI product offerings -– billet CCV 1.9/2.0/2.5 TDI FLUIDAMPR & more
- Thread starter INA
- Start date
oldpoopie
Vendor
- Joined
- May 14, 2001
- Location
- Portland Oregon
- TDI
- 2001 golf gl, 2006 jetta, 1981 ALH swapped rabbit pickup, 1998 beetle
So not worth the expense then?
struikie
Veteran Member
perhaps for the SMF guys it's a good thing...
for the DMF it's not THAT much of a benefit...
JW
for the DMF it's not THAT much of a benefit...
JW
Thanks for the feedback in any case.
Ski in NC
Top Post Dawg
It should be better for the crank and bearings at high rev's and high loads. Even then torsional vibes are not apparent to the operator, whether they are bad or not.
One trick I found for the big marine diesels is if damper is doing something, it gets warm. So shoot it with an IR gun and if it is way above ambient (hard to quantify, I know), it's doing some damping.
One trick I found for the big marine diesels is if damper is doing something, it gets warm. So shoot it with an IR gun and if it is way above ambient (hard to quantify, I know), it's doing some damping.
Digital Corpus
Top Post Dawg
Well it's going to conduct heat from the block. Getting a baseline from the stock damper would be advisable in that case.
steve05ram360
Veteran Member
It was mentioned earlier that when running BFI mounts the amount of vibrations were reduced. I would think if they felt a reduction its doing its job.
Good advice
shortysclimbin
Veteran Member
I just had idle raised to just shy of 900rpms.. That helped a lot with stiffer mounts.. Eventually I may try throwing on my damper from the ve on the CR just to try it out.
shortysclimbin
Veteran Member
depends on what mounts, and what you define as excess.. right now not really that much in excess only under extremely low load. Raising the idle did get rid of the clutch ball bearing rattle in the smf.
robnitro
Veteran Member
I didn't think it was the ball bearings rattling but the gears themselves, right?
I have the regular heavy 22 lb SMF and VR6 clutch and the rattle is very little, even at 820 idle (I've since went to 840 idle) on a VE ALH.
Other people on ecuconnections have found lower than stock idle speed as smoother, but with stock mounts. The bad spot is 950-1100 or so... probably some resonation?
I have the regular heavy 22 lb SMF and VR6 clutch and the rattle is very little, even at 820 idle (I've since went to 840 idle) on a VE ALH.
Other people on ecuconnections have found lower than stock idle speed as smoother, but with stock mounts. The bad spot is 950-1100 or so... probably some resonation?
fouckhest
Veteran Member
we bumped my idle up to right at 1,000rpm and with the delrin VF bushings and the solid lower mount it is fantastic! really smooth
TDIMeister
Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
You will not "feel" torsional vibrations at the seat-of-the-pants. Reducing TV, while always a good thing, is not anything that you will notice subjectively. It's not a vibration like the second-order forces characteristic of an inline 4-cylinder engine that you can definitely influence by engine mounts or internal engine design measures (reducing reciprocating mass and/or altering the L/R ratio). You will know that TV is a problem by broken crankshafts.
robnitro
Veteran Member
TDIMEISTER,
Does the mass of the flywheel and balancer help reduce TV? Would having a heavier flywheel (or keeping the DMF) help reduce TV?
It's just interesting how the frequency is out of the range of feel, which makes sense... like how an opera singer can shatter a glass with their voice, but not be loud enough to deafen people around.
Does the mass of the flywheel and balancer help reduce TV? Would having a heavier flywheel (or keeping the DMF) help reduce TV?
It's just interesting how the frequency is out of the range of feel, which makes sense... like how an opera singer can shatter a glass with their voice, but not be loud enough to deafen people around.
Digital Corpus
Top Post Dawg
Shattering glass is more with having vocal pitch match the natural harmonics of the glass more so than it is about SPL or loudness.
I want to attempt to answer the other bit of your question, but I don't know nearly enough to do so.
I want to attempt to answer the other bit of your question, but I don't know nearly enough to do so.
loudspl
Veteran Member
It's all about resonant frequency of the material(s) involved.
In audio competition, extreme power applied to transducers at enclosure resonant frequency = massive sound pressure. Forced resonance from wind provided by an external periodic frequency matching the natural structural frequency can destroy bridges.
When engine vibration frequency matches the resonant frequency of the crank, the crank can break. Normally, this is not a common issue in the TDI, but tuned mass dampers still help.
Centrifugal pendulum absorbers are supposedly more effective over a broader frequency range vs. viscous mass dampers but those are only on a few OE cars and this TCI aftermarket piece:
http://www.tciauto.com/tc/engine-products/engine-balancershtml
In audio competition, extreme power applied to transducers at enclosure resonant frequency = massive sound pressure. Forced resonance from wind provided by an external periodic frequency matching the natural structural frequency can destroy bridges.
When engine vibration frequency matches the resonant frequency of the crank, the crank can break. Normally, this is not a common issue in the TDI, but tuned mass dampers still help.
Centrifugal pendulum absorbers are supposedly more effective over a broader frequency range vs. viscous mass dampers but those are only on a few OE cars and this TCI aftermarket piece:
http://www.tciauto.com/tc/engine-products/engine-balancershtml
TDIMeister
Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
TVs that concern engineers are on the free-end; the mode on the flywheel-end is also a form of TV and has more direct consequences on NVH (e.g. gearbox chatter, periodic twisting of the engine about its mounts due to reaction moments caused by torque fluctuations) and driving behavior and yes, heavier flywheels/DMFs help in that regard.
One thing that is not intuitively known is that the torque you read from a dyno in ft.lbs. is only an averaged value over time, but more accurate measurements over faster sampling periods will show that the torque fluctuates significantly over this mean and is a function of engine layout (firing order, number of cylinders) and other factors. These will have a much more significant influence on destructive forces in gearboxes, clutch slip and engine vibrations caused by the aforementioned reaction moments.
Some reading here: http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/torsional_excitation_from_piston_engines.htm
rabid_chihuahua
Well-known member
Ever put your diesel into 5th gear at 25mph and commanded full load? Usually the 1/2 order excitation frequency is in the range of the the drivetrain's 2nd natural frequency. I'm pretty certain you can feel the torsional vibrations under those circumstances, at the seat-of-your-pants, steering wheel, feet, dash, cupholder... etc.
With downsizing and downspeeding becoming a hot topic, powertrains now have a full 400Nm+ available at 1200RPM in a 4cyl application. Given the low frequency, large amplitude 2nd order vibrations under this condition, torsional vibrations are becoming a large downstream NVH drivetrain issue. Not just gear durability but a cabin booming issue.
A little additional reading on CPVA's mentioned by loudspl:
http://www.enginehistory.org/NoShortDays/TV.pdf
Old technology is finding mainstream use again.
I need to update this. Thanks to forum member Serge , the above is true. It seems some of the ALH 1.9 TDI motors do not have the correct offset and the teeth are off by approx 1.5mm.
The part # affected is 038 105 243 . I am in talks with Fluidampr right now to explore 2 options:
1. To see if machining 1.5mm off the back end affects the structural integrity
2. If it does to see if we can get the next run of Fluidampr's to have a thicker front end so that we still have the same thickness but correct offset.
Will keep everyone updated.
madcowintucson
Veteran Member
Ha! First time anyone has ever recognized anything I said as being correct lol. So are you telling us that there is some manufacturing differences and that normally spacers on the serpentine belt tensioner are not needed?
And if there is a need, just do what I said, take three exhaust manifold heat shield spacers (looks like a thick washer) and place one per bolt on the serpentine belt tens I tensioner. For me this was the correct spacing and I used some super glue to hold them onto the tensioner and then bolted it to the block. I have at least 100,000 miles on the setup with no issues. Also used the ARP crank pulley bolt instead of the tty factory bolt. Yeah its more money but I felt it was required due to the heavier weight of the fluidamper and to make sure nothing moved...ever. Also its totally reusable
madcowintucson
Veteran Member
By the way I asked fluidamper the same thing to get the offset and they said it can be done but would add a lot to the cost because its an extra machining step. Told me if I can use the three spacers for practically free by all means go that route and I agreed. Curious what answer you say they will give to you...
Looks like the tdiclub is going to get a 1.9TDI specific pulley since it is just a simple operation.
So we have confirmed the 2.0 TDI - its a direct fit , just the 1.9 TDI ALH motors need to have a few thou removed off the mounting face.
loudspl
Veteran Member
No because then that requires a complete redesign of the product and that is a road I don't believe we will venture down.
loudspl
Veteran Member
turbovan+tdi
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Location
- Abbotsford, BC.
- TDI
- 2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
I see the price has gone up. I put one on my van and huge difference, smoothed it out and changed the sound of the engine. Going to have to save up for one.
Looks like your and everyone else's prayers might get answered.
I submitted a rendering tonight of what modifications need to be made to the current 1.8T unit to make it work on all the TDI's. The end product will be application/customer specific so please bare with me while Fluidampr & I work out the details.
I am going to push to have the pulley NOT have a "1.8T" or any other markings on it other than the Fluidampr logo. The AAZ and other pre-1999 TDI's require a spacer and the ALH / Post 1999 1.9 TDI's require machining so the mounting face is going to get alot thicker (thus adding weight). Now comes the fun part of R&D and seeing how we can incorporate it all without interfering with the viscous coupling. Once Fluidampr's lead Engineer comes to an agreement , we will move forward with a batch which will then be finalized inhouse here @ INA and then black zinc plated to the customer's specs.
in layman's terms we are making 1 pulley and then machining the mounting hub to suite your engine. It will be marked for THAT specific engine to avoid confusion when reselling to another party should you decide to remove it in 2-3 years.
Digital Corpus
Top Post Dawg
I'm tossing my hat into the ring for buying one when these come to fruition.
thank you!