Biodies-ill, VW's warranty, and the Diesel Injection Systems Official stance on it.

When you folks start yammering at VW for failures from running anything over B5, it's not VW.... it's the Diesel Injection Systems Manufacturers.

Bosch has final say, VW is just toeing the line.

http://www.stanadyne.com/new/ppt/showfile.asp?id=2498

PS. I still think biodiesel is a good thing, but like all good things, too much is bad thing. Moderation is the key.

R, that's phunny

Audi5000TDI said:

Biodies-ill, VW's warranty...

Click to expand...

BD isn't for everyone!

Yeah, 'Dorf, though it is for me, in moderation. I'm OK with 5% in my beer, 12% in my wine, 43% in my single malt scotch, but I leave the EverClear and the 100% to the kids that know it all.

I tend to prefer a little more in my beer. Got used to the beer in Europe. But I agree 100% EverClear is like bacardi 191 t00 much for my safety.

Warranty? We don't need no steenkin' warranty

Audi5000TDI said:

I'm OK with...43% in my single malt scotch...

Click to expand...

Single malt? You have more self control than I. I can't eat just a single malt milk ball.
Biodiesel is like alcohol in the sense that it is necessary to know your own limit. Unfortunately I can't use more than 100%.
Can I set up a "free-base" system for my biodiesel (ab)use?

Been usin' B100 now in my 2003 Golf for three years (except in the winter).

I love it and never want to go back!

B100 in my A3 Jetta TDI for 10 months, then at least B70 when below +20F. I did chicken out when it went down to -15F. Petrodiesel stinks in so many ways.

Audi - is/was VW's warranty stance the same with the non-PD's. If so why do we know better than VW with a non-PD, but defer to them with a PD.

I'd suggest you ask Bosch about it... to date, I don't know of anyone that has gone 300k or 400k miles on their pre Pumpe Dusse injection system TDi on B100 or B50 or even B20 , so I need to defer.

What I do know is that despite what anyone else says, does or implys, the systems are designed to run on D2, anything else is experimental.

Besides, all we can get here in Southern CA is ULSD.... been mandated since 1-1-2005. Hardly has any smell at all, and makes B anything down right stinky and offensive. We have enough obese people running half naked around here without the smell of french fries at every boulevard to tempt them.

Bummer. Sounds like the key to using B100 is to have a guaranteed high-quality fresh supply all the time. This sounds expensive, but we're all hoping that BioD will end up being less expensive.

I'm keeping my eyes and ears open, and keeping a wish in my heart. Someone, we hope, will figure out some way to engineer around these problems. There's lots of money in it, potentially, so I'm hopeful that someone's working on it as we talk about it.

I don't blame the OEMs. We already know that there has been bad bio on the market. Not to mention the fact that there are a bunch of people (like myself) who are brewing up their own bio. VW, Bosch, and the rest of them cannot be held responsible for what we put in our fuel tanks. They designed a 'diesel' car... not a 'biodiesel' car. As many of us know, these cars can run for a long time on biodiesel. Maybe not as long as they do on petro diesel... but maybe they'll run longer! Who knows? It is going to have a lot to do with the quality of the fuel... not just the type of fuel. Unfortunately, the quality of US biodiesel is more hit-or-miss than the quality of US petro diesel.

Although I respect Audi5000TDI's point of view, I have to disagree. Why? First of all, because a lot of us are using higher blends than B5 and our cars are still fine. Also, did VW or Bosch test B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, and B6, then discover that B6 caused some sort of damage that B5 did not? I seriously doubt it. They are being extra cautious about bio (which I don't blame them for), and they are suggesting a blend that is known to be safe. Does this mean that B6 will kill our injection pumps? Of course not. Most of us know that, because most of us (who are reading this forum) have used much higher blends.

Personally, I knew that there was a risk of VW denying warranty claims after I started usign biodiesel. However, I did my research, and decided that it was an acceptable risk. It turns out that we didn't need to make any engine-related warranty claims, because the bio didn't cause any damage! Now, at 80k miles, I am still happily driving along with biodiesel in my tank (although it is only my winter blend of B80).

You never know what's going to happen with an automobile. My friend Al's TDI blew an injection pump at about 5,000 miles. He had NEVER used biodiesel. VW replaced his injection pump under warranty. If he had been using bio, they probably would have denied his claim, even though it had nothing to do with the fuel... just a faulty pump.

mparker326, the reason that VW does not come out with any suggestions for older TDIs is that they have no reason to. They already sold those cars. It doesn't benefit them in any way to put a bunch of money into research on cars that they already sold. Who knows, maybe the next version of the TDI will be approved to use B20, or B100. But before that, we'll been a set of ASTM standards for B100. The current ASTM spec for biodiesel is for use as a 'fuel additive'. Without that, we cannot expect to find high-quality biodiesel at every pump.

Even though I make my own bio, I would like to see the commercial biodiesel industry grow and prosper. I would like to see cleaner, cheaper biodiesel at thousands of 'gas' stations around the country. I would like to see more emphasis on algae-based biodiesel and WVO based biodiesel.

Until all that stuff happens, those of us who choose to use biodiesel will have to live with the fact that VW may not cover any fuel-related problems under warranty.

What I do know is that despite what anyone else says, does or implys, the systems are designed to run on D2

Click to expand...

Audi: I will agree with that but at what Cetane? Did they really engineer our cars to run on 40 Cetane? Sounds like our D2 is experimental as well.

"He's old enough to know what's right
But young enough not to choose it"

biodiesel is a good thing, but like all good things, too much is bad thing. Moderation is the key.

Click to expand...

No moderation is best. I decided the easist way around any mechanical failures is to save so much money, on 'experimental' fuel, it far exceeds the cost of repairs. I passed that point 15,000 miles ago. I'm commuting now, and was pleased to answer the jealous inquiries from co-workers who spotted my 'veggie' bumper sticker and Elsbett decals. I'm spending $0 - $15 / week to commute 900 miles. The other poor saps are spending $2 - $4k / year on fuel.

Screw moderation!

As for the DISM, they're simpletons. B5 is the limit! What a bunch of crap!
Cummins has stated B100 is just outside the limits for an emergency fuel.
And VW thinks B5 is the limit??!!
Elsbett over 10 thousand veggie conversions running hot veggie oil in fips designed for D2. One Passat has gone over 200,000 miles.
With fuel close to $6/gallon in Germany, and SVO at $2.50/gallon
the only problem Elsbett has is filling orders.
And VW thinks B5 is the limit.
As I said, they and the DISM are just simpletons.

I have been driving on practically free fuel for 32,000 miles. With no WVO fuel related failures.

Who's smarter, VW and the DISM, or me?

Given the fact that current production levels would not even supply the US market with universal B05, I'd be happy if we could get even that far.

By the time everyone can buy higher blends I am confident that the automobile/parts market will 'catch up' - in the meantime, anyone who is in a position to use their car as a test bed to demonstrate long-term reliability at higher blends even today has my respect. The ones who are doing it intelligently (i.e. asking questions, reading a lot, insuring that their source tests regularly for ASTM spec, blending down according to outside temps, etc.) really don't seem to be having any problems, so I don't think it's a big deal in any case to use higher blends on our current cars.

I'm just curious to see what pressure sensitive glow plugs, pietzo injection, and flex-timing (biodiesel sensing) engine technology will do to a market that I doubt is going away.

Even the likes of Hillary Clinton are now on board, saying this is our Manhattan Project. Foreign fuel dependancy is only going to become a higher priority moving forward. Bio-capable cars will have to reflect that.

My (predictable) $.02,

BeetleGo

BeetleGo said:

Foreign fuel dependancy is only going to become a higher priority moving forward. Bio-capable cars will have to reflect that.

Click to expand...

We live in hope, my friend.

Sometimes if you repeat the lie enough times... it becomes the gospel truth.

mparker326 said:

Audi: I will agree with that but at what Cetane? Did they really engineer our cars to run on 40 Cetane? Sounds like our D2 is experimental as well.

"He's old enough to know what's right
But young enough not to choose it"

Click to expand...

Mparker326 gets it..... the Rush part at least... bravo for you... The point is that VW doesn't give a rats sphincter muscle about the US market... They designed the PD engine based car for 45 or better cetane ULSD.... Rot gut diesel is rot gut diesel.... there used to be really poor quality regular uleaded gasoline that would make my toyota ping.... which is why the engine manufacturers started making engines with knock sensors and a method for the ecu to retard the timing.

When the US comes on line with all 50 state ULSD (sorry, we've had it available in California since BP/ Arco brought it out in 2001) things will get better. By the time they desulfur it, we are getting 53 cetane ULSD here in CA, and I can assure you it is very clean burning and smoke free in almost all applications except very low boost, full load pre turbo spooled up conditions.

Audi5000TDI said:

When the US comes on line with all 50 state ULSD (sorry, we've had it available in California since BP/ Arco brought it out in 2001) things will get better. By the time they desulfur it, we are getting 53 cetane ULSD here in CA, and I can assure you it is very clean burning and smoke free in almost all applications except very low boost, full load pre turbo spooled up conditions.

Click to expand...

Smoke free? not in the benz. When my dad fills up on bp/arco ULSD the car still smokes on startup and when we hit the pedal. you still get 1 or 2 belches of diesel smell in the passat TDI although not as bad as my benz on diesel its still there. On biodiesel i get no smell at all which surprises me because i was hoping to smell BBQ. On my mercedes i get the smell of chicken when i use canola oil from the chinese place and the smell of burnt tortillas when the oil is from the mexican place. Also even with ulsd we get vibration from the diesel in the TDI and when on biodiesel its smooth and the vibration is gone.

So NO its not clean burning if i still get the belches of diesel smell and it still smokes in the benz, when the benz is running wvo no smoke, better smell, and the clickity clak is gone but when on diesel even bp's ulsd we get the clickity clak and vibration.

Audi5000TDI said:

Sometimes if you repeat the lie enough times... it becomes the gospel truth.

Click to expand...

Audi,

What's your beef? Who is lying?! I don't think anyone is dissing your position or otherwise flaming you for the point you're making. In fact, I'm sure quite a lot of people tend toward the moderate blend position, myself included. But let's face it, there are also a lot of people here who are actively testing much higher blends and are beginning to log quite a few miles on their cars without issue. Even if we ARE talking about shortened lifespan, we're still probably talking about racking up more miles than we've ever gotten on a gasser.

If I had ready access to quality B100, I might even be one of the early adopters blazing this trail. I've been around since people were insisting that pre-PD's would experience premature catastrophic failure if we used *any* blend of bio, much less B100, and regardless of what Bosch or VW have to say about it, there is now quite a bit of evidence that demonstrates that QUALITY biodiesel, even in high blends <during warmer months> is perfectly safe to use.

This forum has gone around and around on the issue of the manufacturer's stated position on high-blends and whether it's actually harmful, so you're bound to hear from those people when you make it sound like it's impossible to do so just because the manufacture is covering their butts.

That's what the internet is all about, and this site is particularly careful not to make wild claims. Your voice isn't being muzzled, but you will get a rebuttal.

I don't think there *IS* a gospel truth here, is there?

~BG

BeetleGo said:

Even the likes of Hillary Clinton are now on board

BeetleGo

Click to expand...

Somehow, I can't imagine that ever being a good thing...

BeetleGo said:

Audi,

What's your beef? Who is lying?! I don't think anyone is dissing your position or otherwise flaming you for the point you're making. In fact, I'm sure quite a lot of people tend toward the moderate blend position, myself included. But let's face it, there are also a lot of people here who are actively testing much higher blends and are beginning to log quite a few miles on their cars without issue. Even if we ARE talking about shortened lifespan, we're still probably talking about racking up more miles than we've ever gotten on a gasser.

If I had ready access to quality B100, I might even be one of the early adopters blazing this trail. I've been around since people were insisting that pre-PD's would experience premature catastrophic failure if we used *any* blend of bio, much less B100, and regardless of what Bosch or VW have to say about it, there is now quite a bit of evidence that demonstrates that QUALITY biodiesel, even in high blends <during warmer months> is perfectly safe to use.

This forum has gone around and around on the issue of the manufacturer's stated position on high-blends and whether it's actually harmful, so you're bound to hear from those people when you make it sound like it's impossible to do so just because the manufacture is covering their butts.

That's what the internet is all about, and this site is particularly careful not to make wild claims. Your voice isn't being muzzled, but you will get a rebuttal.

I don't think there *IS* a gospel truth here, is there?

~BG

Click to expand...

BG, take it up with Bosch... OK? I don't make the rules or the warranties... I'm just the messenger pigeon.

BTW, I've been running B25 in my Bosch VE pumped TDI.

And for the So SF kid... Any type of fuel you run in your 1980's technology single pintel injectors MB is going to smoke. I am refering to year 2000 technology injectors, such as PD's which have 12 pintels per nozzle.

Audi,

I realize what Bosch's position is. I understand why you were passing this information along. But that doesn't mean that anyone expressing a different position than the manufacturer's is LYING.




As for whether or not HRC's political position is 'worthy' - all partisan considerations aside, my point was that high-profile politicians are stepping into the ring and weighing in IN FAVOR of biodiesel. If you don't find that significant, fine. You probably are missing the point anyway.

Oh wait, the gospal truth is what the manufacture says, and anyone who makes a qualified statement to the contrary is LYING.

Got it.

I'm glad we finally got the point. I feel that we really made some progress here.