freeing up seized bwh engine from water damage

thundershorts

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I just bought this tdi with water damage and atempting to free up rings. Pulled glow plugs and managed to suck 1/2 tsp of clean water from #1 cyl. all other cyls dry. filled all cyls with clean diesel fuel to soften any ridge. No sign of water in intake or crankcase. I plan to remove starter next and try to move ring gear next. Anyone here have any good other ideas?
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steelmb

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If it was running when the water was ingested then most likely you have bent rods. How did the water get in the engine? how long has it been in there?
 

thundershorts

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I just bought this tdi with water damage and atempting to free up rings. Pulled glow plugs and managed to suck 1/2 tsp of clean water from #1 cyl. all other cyls dry. filled all cyls with clean diesel fuel to soften any ridge. No sign of water in intake or crankcase. I plan to remove starter next and try to move ring gear next. Anyone here have any good other ideas?
Thundershorts
Water probably in there for 2 months...what little i removed was clean, no brown rust stain. I plan to leave the oil in the cylinders for a week then see if i can budge it. It seems like a plan to try this before pulling head or removing engine. Diesel fuel seems as good as anything to soften rust usless anyone has a better suggestion. we did the same treatment on a seized ford flathead which hadn't run for 20 years and it freed up.
 

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if the rings don't free up in a reasonable time to be able to move pistons by turning ring gear, it might be time to consider bsm replacement at 114k miles. crank is at 2/8 o'clock position. it certainly is lot less time and work to remove pan and unbolt rod journel to free piston rings on the one cyl i think is suspect rather than pulling cyl head. anyone have thoughts on this? Another comment on bsm replacement...why not cut the sprocket on crank with plasma cutter rather than fart around with puller which seems to break the sprocket anyway. cutting a slot almost to the crank in the sprocket , then splitting the cast steel sprocket with a chisel. Any comments?
 

johnboy00

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How did the water get there in the first place?

As far as pulling the sprocket is concerned, It's not that difficult to pull off with the correct puller. I don't think you'll find anyone here who's going to tell you its a good idea to use a plasma cutter.:eek:
 

thundershorts

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water was from flood fresh not salt..engine was not running so did not hydrolock
 

thundershorts

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speaking of this car, last night i lost several circuts, pr windows, central locks, interior lighting, key bell. no bad fuses that i can find. seems odd to lose both switched and constant hot circuts at same time. anyone have a clue where to look?
 

in2turbos

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hope he got it real cheap. i repaired my katrina passat 1.8t it took me almost 2 months to get the elect straight. water and a hot battery and elect components in water dont mix.
 

Ski in NC

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If engine is stuck from sitting wet, the bore and rings will be in bad shape. Even if you get it broken loose, that cylinder will not have decent compression. Pull the head in either case.
 

aja8888

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speaking of this car, last night i lost several circuts, pr windows, central locks, interior lighting, key bell. no bad fuses that i can find. seems odd to lose both switched and constant hot circuts at same time. anyone have a clue where to look?
The comfort control module is under a front seat. When it gets wet, all kinds of strange stuff happens. There are a few threads here in the B5 section about dealing with wet CCM's. Not fun, lots of circuits, etc.
 

thundershorts

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I had removed the ccm to clean and dry it, it was sitting in its box full of water and working and I thought it was something else, and all circuts worked fine. I also found the transmission ecu and cleaned it as well. The ccm actually worked full of water.

The battery aparently was fully drained probably due to all the acessory junk hooked up to it..two huge amps, two 12' speakers, three tv,s, and a Viper system plus it was original Varta dated 04.

Now onto the airbag ecu behind center console and the side airbag sensors under seats...hope the sensors are waterproof. Anyone have any helpful hints-precautions?

in2turbos managed to get his Katrina 1.8 going and that was a much longer flooding than this one and brackish, salt water rather than fresh water.

here is a tip for everyone, the best thing to use on electrical connections is Ideal no-ox it is specific for dissimular metals and amalamates with the surface you apply it too and does not dry. dielectric grease is the worst thing you can use....the word itself is self explanatary (against electric)










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now
 

thundershorts

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in response to in2turbos question, I guess done, depending if I go chainless, I will be in this for 50-60% the cost of buying one in the marketplace. VW "leather" is made out of ground up leather and other fibers and binders and disintergrates soaked in water. I'm looking for a set of seats hopefully cloth. Presently car is black/beige
 

thundershorts

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engine is not free yet...removed starter but no budge yet. Is it easier to remove head with manifolds attached or is it possible to unbolt them and move them aside enough to remove the head?
 

DickSilver

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IMHO, remove the engine, completely dismantle & rebuild - that is, if you want a good car. Of course, you still gotta fix seats and any other electrical goodies that went south while wet....
 

thundershorts

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in response to dicksilver,s post, that is often the sure way. I thought its worth the effort to try the freeing up first, removing head next, then pull engine. anyone here know aprox time for removing engine? maybe a link? a look at cam may tell me a bit about oil history.
 

thundershorts

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with the head off it would give an oportunity to see bore condition/wear if not bad then proceed to bsm replacement without engine removal.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Flood cars are organ donors, IMHO. I don't care how 'cheap' you got it. :cool:

As far as the engine goes, I'd just pull the lock carrier off, and slide the engine/trans out the front and take it all apart. Pretty straightforward job in that respect, and you can leave the subframe in place.
 

thundershorts

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sounds like a more staightforward job with the inline setup than a cramped transverse araingement. is there any correlation with cold climates and bs chain failures vs mild climates. vw dealers around here have replaced a few tensioners, couple chains but say no failures to note.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Actually the transverse cars are easier.

All the chain drives will eventually fail, I would not tempt fate. Many dealers seem clueless on the matter (but not all).

Engine temp is regulated, does not matter if you live in Iowa or Texas, same thermostat, same engine, same crappy design.
 

roadhard1960

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I bought a no hood, no gas cap, stipped 84 GTI. Engine never had the power I expected and it used oil. Rebuilt head and it still used excess oil. At least one of the cylinders had pitting due to water sitting in it before I got it. I would expect that a diesel would be even worse about power and oil with pitted bores. I got an Audi 2L engine from the junkyard that was a bit sludged. When I removed the head the bores were worn more than my 1.8 engine. No new rings or bearings. But when I assembled the 2L in my car with everything else the same the power was much better even with the sloppy worn bores. Oil consumption I think was better with the worn engine.
 

thundershorts

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if cyl head is relatively quick to remove, it still might be better insight as to what to expect before removing eng/trans. no water was present in crankcase and a very little rust would stop piston travel. light tap on piston crown with head off. less than a tsp of water found in the #1 cyl. is that a stupid plan of attack before removal of power train oilhammer?
 

Ski in NC

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Go ahead and pull head now. Might be able to pull the pistons and re-hone with block in place.

Turn off the computer and get the tools out. In the time taken to post all this the head could already be off.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I already said my piece: I think you should remove the engine and take it apart. I would also want to take the trans pan off, drain the diff (you need to remove the trans to do that) and drain the torque convertor.
 

thundershorts

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Thanks everyone! I think i'll gather up the gaskets and head bolts i'll need and ask the mechanic who worked for me for 35 years on French diesels to give me a hand.

since the engine wasn't running, if water entered the trans, it'll be low in the pan. easy enough to drain off a quart or two to see if water entered the vent. is it not possible to suck diff oil out using a long tube placed in the fill opening? only place water would have entered diff would have been axle seals and they seem to appear to be in good shape without even slight seepage. if the trans has water in it, the solinoids in the valve body probaly suffered.

anyone here use and like deep creep penetrating oil? German car techs seem to perfer wurth products. I'm going to suck out the diesel fuel out of the cyls and replace is with some penetrant like wurth or deep creep before going further.

on another subject...water mix coolant. water is the universal solvent as we know and has the ability to disolve iron, aluminum, magnesium, etc. In a discussion with a MB engineer about using distilled water in the cooling system of a rare Benz, the engineer explained that distilled water was "mineral thirsty" meaning that it will in the presence of any metals will disolve up to its saturation point any metal it has contact with, whereas tap water already is saturated for the most part with disolved matter.
Although it sounds spiffy to use distilled water, it probably isn't.
 

steelmb

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Thanks everyone! I think i'll gather up the gaskets and head bolts i'll need and ask the mechanic who worked for me for 35 years on French diesels to give me a hand.

since the engine wasn't running, if water entered the trans, it'll be low in the pan. easy enough to drain off a quart or two to see if water entered the vent. is it not possible to suck diff oil out using a long tube placed in the fill opening? only place water would have entered diff would have been axle seals and they seem to appear to be in good shape without even slight seepage. if the trans has water in it, the solinoids in the valve body probaly suffered.

anyone here use and like deep creep penetrating oil? German car techs seem to perfer wurth products. I'm going to suck out the diesel fuel out of the cyls and replace is with some penetrant like wurth or deep creep before going further.

on another subject...water mix coolant. water is the universal solvent as we know and has the ability to disolve iron, aluminum, magnesium, etc. In a discussion with a MB engineer about using distilled water in the cooling system of a rare Benz, the engineer explained that distilled water was "mineral thirsty" meaning that it will in the presence of any metals will disolve up to its saturation point any metal it has contact with, whereas tap water already is saturated for the most part with disolved matter.
Although it sounds spiffy to use distilled water, it probably isn't.
Should have started that with "once upon a time". Ever look at a kettle used on a stove for a few years with well water. Do you want the inside of your engine looking like that?
 

johnboy00

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Should have started that with "once upon a time". Ever look at a kettle used on a stove for a few years with well water. Do you want the inside of your engine looking like that?
+1

It's the dissolved salts in tap water that cause problems, not lack of dissolved metals.

BTW, are you sure he did not say De-ionized (DI) water. DI water is too pure and will begin to corrode most metals.
 

MOGolf

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DI water is specified as water to use in mixing with the VW coolant. However, that is hard to come by in most places whereas distilled water is available at most grocery stores, etc. The water is not used as a 100% fill. At most it would be 50% of the system capacity, at the least amount it would be 1/3. That's not a lot of water and unlikely to "dissolve" much metal. I know my engine hasn't dissolved.
 

thundershorts

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it's true that a gallon of water's saturation point for iron, aluminum, etc is very small.

older cars had more brass and copper exposed and typically, the zinc leached out of the brass leaving a matrix we saw as sort of a soft mush.

i was only relating the disertation of the MB engineer with regard to the guy with the million dollar plus car.
 
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