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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old September 12th, 2017, 15:35   #3151
nwdiver
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Originally Posted by turbocharged798 View Post
^^This. Its great for electric water heating, EVs and lighting at night but a total loose for everything else. Our electric company also increases the base charge. Total loose-loose situation.
How much does your base charge go up to? (Looked it up... it's $3......) So you'd start saving money after driving 100 miles. You'd be cutting the cost of fuel by >50%. PLUS all the money you'd save on heating at night in the winter

Then there's always solar... 'Free' electricity during the day. Cheap electricity at night. Can't beat that

Even w/o cheaper electricity... you're talking about a difference of $0.01/mile. I drove a Jetta before I got my Tesla. The maintenance costs of the Jetta between timing belts, oil changes, EGR cooler etc added up to >$0.01/mile...

Last edited by nwdiver; September 12th, 2017 at 15:42.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 15:48   #3152
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Just paid $95.37 for 546KW/hr or 18 cents a KW. You are paying nearly a third of what we are paying.
??? Are you including the $24 base charge in your assessment? You pay that wether you have an EV or not... you're only gonna pay $0.06/kWh MORE...

If you got an EV and used 400kWh your electric bill isn't gonna go up by $72... it's going up by $24. You'll be paying $0.02/mile. Not $0.06/mile. You're doing math wrong.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 16:05   #3153
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Good catch. It looks like the EV economics are quite favorable for him. I guess that argument is toast.
I think there will always(in the near future at least) be die hard diesel enthusiasts for whom no rationale will justify giving up their diesels. I have Amish neighbors down the road that are quite content with horse and buggy. And they know exactly what to do with the emissions.

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Old September 12th, 2017, 18:43   #3154
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50 mpg seems a bit optimistic for an overall average efficiency. I'm happy with 38-40 mpg in the winter, and my car is modded for fuel efficiency. Plus it's much easier for me to make my own electricity vs. diesel fuel.
With my new job I have been averaging around 53mpg. Easy peasy with an ALH.
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Originally Posted by nwdiver View Post
How much does your base charge go up to? (Looked it up... it's $3......) So you'd start saving money after driving 100 miles. You'd be cutting the cost of fuel by >50%. PLUS all the money you'd save on heating at night in the winter

Then there's always solar... 'Free' electricity during the day. Cheap electricity at night. Can't beat that

Even w/o cheaper electricity... you're talking about a difference of $0.01/mile. I drove a Jetta before I got my Tesla. The maintenance costs of the Jetta between timing belts, oil changes, EGR cooler etc added up to >$0.01/mile...
You are leaving out the fact that the daytime rate goes UP which completely negates the savings at night. You have to use 60% of electricity at night to break even.
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Originally Posted by nwdiver View Post
??? Are you including the $24 base charge in your assessment? You pay that wether you have an EV or not... you're only gonna pay $0.06/kWh MORE...

If you got an EV and used 400kWh your electric bill isn't gonna go up by $72... it's going up by $24. You'll be paying $0.02/mile. Not $0.06/mile. You're doing math wrong.
No I did not, you are correct, I would still be paying 13cents a KW. If I switched to timed metering then you have to account for the price hike during the day. I do not like doubling my rate during the day. Stop cherry picking data.

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Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
Good catch. It looks like the EV economics are quite favorable for him. I guess that argument is toast.
I think there will always(in the near future at least) be die hard diesel enthusiasts for whom no rationale will justify giving up their diesels. I have Amish neighbors down the road that are quite content with horse and buggy. And they know exactly what to do with the emissions.
No they are not, and with all the drawbacks of EVs I do not see how it is "better" than my current setup.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 19:48   #3155
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No I did not, you are correct, I would still be paying 13cents a KW. If I switched to timed metering then you have to account for the price hike during the day. I do not like doubling my rate during the day. Stop cherry picking data.
Your other night-time loads get cheaper too... regardless... $0.13/kWh = ~$0.043/mile. AND with a more efficient EV like the Model 3 or LEAF you're looking at ~$0.033/mile vs ~$0.05/mile for diesel.

I know you're probably just trying to use this as a counter-point but if you were truly interested your utility probably has your TOU data so you could calculate how your bill would ACTUALLY change under a peak plan.

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with all the drawbacks of EVs I do not see how it is "better" than my current setup.
Well, at least you can cross off 'cost of fuel'... the list of 'drawbacks' is getting shorter....

Last edited by nwdiver; September 12th, 2017 at 19:53.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 02:14   #3156
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For my own personal anecdotal math, based on current gasoline, diesel, and electric rates:
2015 Azera: $3.199/gal 25 miles/gal = $0.128/mile
2009 Armada: $3.199/gal 13 miles/gal = $0.25/mile
2009 Jetta TDi: $3.079/gal 34 miles/gal = $0.09/mile
2016 Fiat 500e: $0.24/kWh 3.4 miles/kWh = $0.07/mile
2016 Fiat 500e: $0.14/kWh 3.4 miles/kWh = $0.04/mile

Electric rates are tier 2 (my typical tier) of my current rate plan, and the 'super off peak' rate of the TOU EV plan if I was to switch to it.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 08:10   #3157
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Got a chance to look under a Tesla for the first time just now (one in the shop). Other than the giant flat (aluminum?) bottom section, which is a nice piece of welded structure, is is pretty ordinary underneath as far as the suspension and brakes go. French tires. Canadian control arms. German shock absorbers. Italian brakes. Good thing this is an American car, right?

It also has some lube leaking in the rear out a couple of little vent "grates" in the rear plastic shield. It is reddish, like some ATFs, coming out of what must be the transaxle, leaving little wet trails down the back of the car.

Other than that, looks to be pretty well assembled and laid out underneath.

It also has a standalone parking brake caliper which I found interesting.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 08:58   #3158
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I'd be shocked if there is a single American made car with 100% of its parts manufactured here. At least Tesla assembles 100% of their cars in America, arguably making them the most American auto manufacturer. My Ford truck was built in Canada, and I have zero objections to that.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 09:01   #3159
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Got a chance to look under a Tesla for the first time just now (one in the shop).
did you get to road test it? I drove one at a "event" here in KC. It was spectacular. I found regen annoying as it would never "coast". But I could get used to that.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 09:23   #3160
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did you get to road test it? I drove one at a "event" here in KC. It was spectacular. I found regen annoying as it would never "coast". But I could get used to that.
I have driven them before, yes. STL Science Center had an event that had a bunch of EVs there, drove them all (all the ones that were available at the time). And yes, it is a neat car. The one I drove had a $110k price tag, so that alone was enough to stop my heart so the test drive to get it going again was welcome. Truthfully, though, there is not enough there for me to justify that price. A 911 turbo or an RS6 is also quite a blast to drive, and they make neater noises too.

I actually thought the eSpark was more "fun" to drive to be honest, LOL. But considering I could not drive it anywhere, it does not really matter.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 09:44   #3161
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I found regen annoying as it would never "coast". But I could get used to that.
You get used to the Tesla one pedal style regen fairly quickly. Once I acclimated, I found it was much easier to be smooth than with the brake blending regen Toyota and Fiat use. (Tesla's regen isn't controlled by the brake pedal at all - lift off the go pedal and you get full regen.)

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....Other than the giant flat (aluminum?) bottom section, which is a nice piece of welded structure...
The bottom of the Tesla battery tray is made of titanium.

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Originally Posted by turbocharged798 View Post
You are leaving out the fact that the daytime rate goes UP which completely negates the savings at night. You have to use 60% of electricity at night to break even.
It was easy for us to do this... charge the cars at night, run laundry at night / weekends, and run a smaller AC unit during the day when we're not home.

-J
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Old September 13th, 2017, 09:49   #3162
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Not that it matters since I would never be able to afford one, but the center stack screen thingy is annoying and distracting. My distaste for that is about as much as my distaste for the CVT equipped Mitsubishi Mirage, and that thing angers me enough to make me want to kick puppies.

What is wrong with just a simple, traditional, easy to use radio and HVAC? I guess you could get used to it, but man, I thought BMW's iDrive was bad.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 13:25   #3163
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Not that it matters since I would never be able to afford one, but the center stack screen thingy is annoying and distracting. My distaste for that is about as much as my distaste for the CVT equipped Mitsubishi Mirage, and that thing angers me enough to make me want to kick puppies.

What is wrong with just a simple, traditional, easy to use radio and HVAC? I guess you could get used to it, but man, I thought BMW's iDrive was bad.
I'm with you on the distraction part .......

I am wondering if at some point the distractions will get to the point the feds will step in to limit what information and entertainment can be put in front of a driver?

Distracted driving today is much more of a danger today than drunk or high driving....

On a side note according to CDOT, today in CO. there is less high driving today since the legalization of weed.....

That is, while during that same time distracted raleted crashes & deaths have continued to climb....

Give me basic stuff as at least an option, or I will likely stick with what I have or similar for the rest of my driving life.......
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Old September 13th, 2017, 14:16   #3164
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I found it no less distracting than any other nav system once I got used to it. When I was driving the Model S I found the common things I wanted to change could be done from the steering wheel buttons anyway.

The climate controls are easy to pull up, and I like having the navi map in the cluster and screen, instead of on my phone in a mount on the windshield.

I do wish the car remembered the DRL / parking light setting between "ignition" cycles.

I don't know how sold I am on the Model 3 not having any instrument cluster...

-J
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Old September 15th, 2017, 11:51   #3165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
For my own personal anecdotal math, based on current gasoline, diesel, and electric rates:
2015 Azera: $3.199/gal 25 miles/gal = $0.128/mile
2009 Armada: $3.199/gal 13 miles/gal = $0.25/mile
2009 Jetta TDi: $3.079/gal 34 miles/gal = $0.09/mile
2016 Fiat 500e: $0.24/kWh 3.4 miles/kWh = $0.07/mile
2016 Fiat 500e: $0.14/kWh 3.4 miles/kWh = $0.04/mile

Electric rates are tier 2 (my typical tier) of my current rate plan, and the 'super off peak' rate of the TOU EV plan if I was to switch to it.
You're being very conservative with the 500e's consumption. In the 6,000 miles I've driven since April 1st, the car has averaged 4.4 miles per kWh. I expect closer to 3.4 in the winter.
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