09 Belt or Chain Dealer said Chain

The dealer told me chain could there mid year change? Why not use a chain or it a ploy more money for dealer?

MonsterTDI09 said:

The dealer told me chain could there mid year change? Why not use a chain or it a ploy more money for dealer?

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What did he say?

Bill

The dealer said chain

Dealer is smoking something.

Ask for it...

MonsterTDI09 said:

The dealer told me chain could there mid year change? Why not use a chain or it a ploy more money for dealer?

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But what's the issue? Have you already racked up enough miles on an '09 to warrant a timing belt change?

No chain .. Belt set- up looks similar to a ALH with PD rollers and sprockets. Just what I saw on my 09 E-bahn reader .. According to E-bahn maintenance 09 TDI belt replacement is 120 k .. R

I know i asked the question about the timing belt he said chain. To late now i guess. Why not use a chain? Can a local grue do the belt? No way close 120 yet thinking a head

Chains are noisy and will stretch over time.

The belt is quiet and reliable. Remember: The common owner does not want noise, they want MPG, and they want it to last forever!

BTW...120K miles for belt change makes sense; no pulsating IP to turn like the 1Z/AHU/ALH - it's a continuous pressure IP.

Tony

Expensive (BMW, Mercedes) car: chain

Inexpensive (VW) car: belt

Having replaced both a chain and a timing belt on different cars, the chain is by far the superior system.

Time to replace timing belt: 6+ hours (depending on the car)
Time to replace timing chain: about an hour (including the time to drink a beer and call your buddy with a timing belt to laugh at him)

The only footnote to this is that if the chain is broken, its a similar job to replacing a timing belt.

grindMARC said:

Having replaced both a chain and a timing belt on different cars, the chain is by far the superior system.

Time to replace timing belt: 6+ hours (depending on the car)
Time to replace timing chain: about an hour (including the time to drink a beer and call your buddy with a timing belt to laugh at him)

The only footnote to this is that if the chain is broken, its a similar job to replacing a timing belt.

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Hmmm-maybe that's dealer flat rate or someone who doesn't know what to hell they are doing.A guru changed my injection pump AND timing belt in about 3 hrs(AHU motor)-they have also held TB GTG's out west where a guru could do the TB's on ALH motors in 2hrs...I have a feeling this will be another chain vs. belt thread......

LMAO! 6+ hours?!?! glad I didn't pay you to do my timing belt! try 2 hours, including the time spent explaining everything to a newb like me

guys, there are already threads for the belt vs. chain war... this is not one of them

MonsterTDI09, seriously do a dealer-delete and NEVER go back there again... EVAR! this is the 2nd instance of some moron at a dealership saying they have chains in less than 24 hours! that I'm aware of... so that means there have been, outside of the forums, about 250 owners told by their "knowledgeable" dealerships that their car has a timing chain... in only 24 hours!

attention dealership service managers, advisors, technicians, oil jockeys, etc: *** are you getting paid for?! do your frickin job! learn something for once!

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=252050

Question is would a timing chain last 500 thousand miles.Or you better off 5 t/b jobs and water pumps? and 5 thousand in mantiance cost.Just throwing that out there.

i don't see how the chain is considered a superior system, and changing one out in an hour seems unlikely.

chains wear just like any other moving part. From what I've read, a chain can last around 300K miles. by then it is stretched and should be replaced.

MonsterTDI09 said:

Question is would a timing chain last 500 thousand miles.Or you better off 5 t/b jobs and water pumps? and 5 thousand in mantiance cost.Just throwing that out there.

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doubt it. chains stretch too AFAIK. doesn't matter if it did last 500,000 miles, because the water pump won't. if you want to know more about the belt/chain war search for posts by oilhammer

look, if you DON'T go to the dealer... there is NO WAY that 500,000 miles will be $5,000 in maintenance costs from the timing system alone. especialy with 120,000 intervals. even if it did cost that much that is $0.01 cents per mile, which is only slightly higher than what it costs for the older generation TDIs. over time, the price of timing system maintenance will get cheaper (if you DON'T go to the dealer, that is)

if you DO choose the dealer, it will probably be $5,000 MINIMUM for the maintenance, PLUS the cost of however many new engines your car needs because they keep destroying them over and over again

Sip'n Diesel said:

LMAO! 6+ hours?!?! glad I didn't pay you to do my timing belt! try 2 hours, including the time spent explaining everything to a newb like me ...

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and I don't see how any timing belt that requires the motor mount to be pulled and a water pump replacement could take only 2 hours. Maybe 4? A novice following the pdf step by step and consulting the manual will take about 8 (ask me how i know )

actually, it was probably closer to 1 hour 45 minutes now that I think about it

I guess I will go see sip n Diesel in Illinois to do myT/B job and have some beers.Tell wife iam going on a road trip.Thanks for inform.How many people drove a millon miles? With one rebuild and 1 turbo?

grindMARC said:

Having replaced both a chain and a timing belt on different cars, the chain is by far the superior system.

Time to replace timing belt: 6+ hours (depending on the car)
Time to replace timing chain: about an hour (including the time to drink a beer and call your buddy with a timing belt to laugh at him)

The only footnote to this is that if the chain is broken, its a similar job to replacing a timing belt.

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Nissan QR25DE timing chain(s) labor time: 6.6 hrs

Toyota 2AZ-FE timing chain labor time: 5.9 hrs

Toyota 22-RE timing chain labor time: 11.2 hrs

Lincoln LS V8 timing chain labor time: 14.8 hrs

Mercedes Benz 203.064 timing chain labor time: 5.7 hrs

Chrysler 2.7L DOHC V6 timing chain labor time: 4.6 (LH body) 4.7 (LX)

GM 2.4L "twin cam" timing chain labor time: 5.8 hrs

GM 2.2L 'ECOtec" timing chain labor time: 5.1 hrs

GM Northstar engines timing chain labor time: 15.7 hrs


...I have done all those, and MANY more, and I guarantee you I can do a LIFETIME'S worth of timing belts on any 4 cyl TDI in FAR less time than ANY of those listed... an you needn't deal with any cleaning of sealing surfaces, messing with guides and rails and goofy hydraulic tensioners or any other such nonsense and we won't even go into parts costs and the piles of pieces needed to do them.

Please, get real.

HO Ho ho. Good. Thank you Yoda. As to chain stretching, look to the stress required to strain the chain plate section area. It ain't happening in a functioning system. Chain lengthens due to wear at the rollers and pins.

if anyone thinks they can design, engineer, and produce a better TDI... go right ahead, I'll buy one

The 09 give off so much heat would it shorten the life of the T/B?

Expensive (BMW, Mercedes) car: chain

Inexpensive (VW) car: belt

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Scion: chain. That was one of my first questions when I bought the xD.

i don't see how the chain is considered a superior system...

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From what I've read, a chain can last around 300K miles. by then it is stretched and should be replaced.

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You answered your own question.

actually, it was probably closer to 1 hour 45 minutes now that I think about it

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I'd love to see it! I've only done a handful of TDI TBs, but I'm not down to 1:45 yet!

Timing chains do need to be replaced, if you ever get to that point... but considering that most people are completely clueless, a lot more TDIs are going to die due to a missed/botched timing belt job than Toyotas or Nissans will due to a stretched or broken chain. I've worked on a LOT of diesel Mercedes... and it doesn't take very long at all to put in a new chain. Most of the ones that come in for a chain have 300-500,000 miles on the original chain and are only brought in because they are making noise. Anyone who can't admit that the TB system on a TDI is a serious weak point is out to lunch.

tditom said:

and I don't see how any timing belt that requires the motor mount to be pulled and a water pump replacement could take only 2 hours. Maybe 4? A novice following the pdf step by step and consulting the manual will take about 8 (ask me how i know )

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My best is 1 hour 37 min ALH.
58 min 1Z.

Usually, about 2-1/2-3 hours poking along.

The new single row chains on the V6 TDI is "lifetime" and they say that's about 150K.

Just look at all the single row VR6 cars.....There's a winner......

Figure about $4000 for the 4 chains and the 40 or so other parts that need to be changed AFTER the engine is removed to service it.

McBrew said:

..... Anyone who can't admit that the TB system on a TDI is a serious weak point is out to lunch.

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And if you had any idea how many newer 1.5L and 1.8L Toyota engine I get in here with less than 200k miles with the chains drives falling apart I will meet you for that lunch...

You wanna see if that Scion can come close to any of my Volkswagen engines for longevity, I'm all for it. I have one in the driveway with 383k miles, another with 433k miles... and a Toyota with 319k miles getting chain replacement #2 (the first one went at 160k and allowed two pistons to get holes punched in them).

Please do not assume MB's giant chains on slow revving engines are anywhere near comparing the teeny weeny chain on that high revving hair dryer under your Scion's hood.

You wanna see if that Scion can come close to any of my Volkswagen engines for longevity, I'm all for it.

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No. You misunderstood me. I'm talking about the average car owner... not a TDI guru or a Toyota guru. The "average guy or gal" is going to run into trouble because of the special care that a TDI needs in regards to the timing belt.

I have one in the driveway with 383k miles, another with 433k miles...

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And I have a customer with a 4 cyl Toyota pickup with 1.1 million miles on it. He was in the Toyota brochure about 6 or 7 years ago. He does 20,000 mile oil changes on conventional oil. The original engine went over 600,000 miles, then he put a junk yard engine in it. He knows absolutely nothing about engines or maintenance.

Just look at all the single row VR6 cars.....There's a winner......

Figure about $4000 for the 4 chains and the 40 or so other parts that need to be changed AFTER the engine is removed to service it.

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That's poor engineering, not a fault of the chain. Also, many procedures are not really necessary. The old Mercedes 5-cyl and 6-cyl diesels call for a number of hours labor, but there is a method to change the chain in less than an hour... just as good as the "by the book" method, but without removing so many parts.

To the average Joe, a TB job on a TDI is one of two things: $1,600+ at a dealership or $4,000+ for a replacement engine. The average Joe isn't going to know about TDI gurus. Unfortunately, most people find TDI Club a little too late. If an ALH TDI had a 200k chain that cost $3,000 to replace, the average guy would be better off financially speaking. No need to tell me that there are gurus who can replace a belt for MUCH less than $1,000, because I am one of them. However, I am talking about the average owner.

Waco Kid said:

You've got to remember, that these are just simple farmers, these are people of the land, the common clay of the new west. You know . . . morons.

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Please do not assume MB's giant chains on slow revving engines are anywhere near comparing the teeny weeny chain on that high revving hair dryer under your Scion's hood.

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If it makes you feel better, I rarely rev my Scions "hair dryer" over 3,000 RPMs.

Mercedes has had their own problems with chains... the old single row chains from the 3.8L V8 engines were known to fail. Again, this was an engineering problem and should never have happened. They replaced them all with dual row chains under warranty.

Some of the older Mercedes roadsters had blower motors that were so hard to get to that the labor to replace it could be more than what the car is worth. Imagine that -- considering the car totalled because of a dead climate control blower motor! You wouldn't say that blower motors are all terrible and that cars shouldn't have them... that's just an example of poor engineering. On a W123 Mercedes, you can have the blower motor out in about 30 seconds. In a Mk4 VW, it takes much more work, including moving the center console back. It would only take about 1/4" more clearance and you'd be able to remove the blower without moving the center console. Poor engineering. Every car has multiple examples of poor engineering. In my opinion, the TB system on a TDI and the job to replace it is embarrasing.

No car is perfict.They should try to make them better. VW is pushing tdi on MPG and avg joe thinks diesel last a long time win win.When they find out about t/b broke and need a new head or more they will be pissed.VW will take the hit.vw warranty is a joke these car built to put lots of miles on them.I think they have a winner here if they address t/b system other little things and better dealers that give good info better service my ex dealer pushes auddie porsh