My new turbo has arrived... (Picture Intensive)

I got a package in the mail today on my birthday =)... I told Charlie it's like Christmas... in April. With the weather, it sure feels like it!

Here's some pictures. This VNT-20 is not stock =).

I baseline dyno this weekend at APTuning in Lebanon, PA on their Dynojet 224xLC.

As always, you can view more pics of this stuff at:

http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u171/justler_2007/

Here's some pictures.

Compressor:





Exhaust:





Manifold:











Misc:

Nice man! That looks great!
BTW, do you have the same monitor that I do? Samsung 225BW? Love the thing!
Have fun!
-BB

Second person to say that. The one with tdiclub.com is a 930b, the one w/ the VW golf torn apart background is a 204b.

Running Vista in dual monitor so I can pan across the screen =)

Hehe, same desktop as me

-Jason

Ahh, I only have one monitor, but it is 22"
One of my professors just picked up the Apple 30" studio display, he's running dual with his "old" 23" studio--crazy guy!

With a 1-3-4-2 firing order, that design of manifold will have exhaust pulses from the cylinders arriving at the secondaries separated by 180 degrees crank angle followed by 540 degrees. The secondaries will see pulses
1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1... and
0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0... respectively

Far from optimal.

A header with primaries paired 1-4 and 2-3 would go
1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0...
0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1...

That's only the beginning of it.

TDIMeister said:

With a 1-3-4-2 firing order, that design of manifold will have exhaust pulses from the cylinders arriving at the secondaries separated by 180 degrees crank angle followed by 540 degrees. The secondaries will see pulses
1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1... and
0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0... respectively

Far from optimal.

A header with primaries paired 1-4 and 2-3 would go
1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0...
0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1...

That's only the beginning of it.

Click to expand...

I still want one

Yes, I've driven 4 of them with this strange harmonic. It feels like a slight miss a gasser would give with a bad sparkplug/wire, I like the log manifold better for the smooth running oem feel.

Jeff

TDIMeister said:

With a 1-3-4-2 firing order, that design of manifold will have exhaust pulses from the cylinders arriving at the secondaries separated by 180 degrees crank angle followed by 540 degrees. The secondaries will see pulses
1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1... and
0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0... respectively

Far from optimal.

A header with primaries paired 1-4 and 2-3 would go
1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0...
0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1...

That's only the beginning of it.

Click to expand...

Please tell me the 4 cars you've listened to with this characteristic.

Please describe the sound better. After you mentioned this the other day inthe other thread, I tried listening for this while I was driving around the other day, and for the life of me I can't hear anything strange.

Justler said:

Second person to say that. The one with tdiclub.com is a 930b, the one w/ the VW golf torn apart background is a 204b.

Running Vista in dual monitor so I can pan across the screen =)

Click to expand...

Yup I'm the other guy with samsung LCDs. (2) 19" ones. Oh gee, BB has them too

KERMA said:

Please tell me the 4 cars you've listened to with this characteristic.

Please describe the sound better. After you mentioned this the other day inthe other thread, I tried listening for this while I was driving around the other day, and for the life of me I can't hear anything strange.

Click to expand...

It sounds like 1100110011

You may not notice it with a weaker tuning or at higher altitude. It's kind of like your hybrid turbo that had too much clearance on the compressor wheel-to-housing that puked boost on itself, remember that wierdness?

Ummmmm, MD, ME, TX, and you can guess the 4th one.

Oh, you mean compressor surge.
That's in the programming.
And it's why tuning is included in the price of the kit.

Looks a little like mine. I can't compare it on size though. Mine is bloomin' huge though. Got a totally unique exhaust outlet as it's too wide to use the standard downpipe attachment.

Getting an adapter for the exhaust outlet to downpipe =)

Dave et al,

I don't think the slight asymmetry with the way the primary pipes are laid out will cause a problem. Dave knows how familiar I am with inline-four motorcycle engines, and *every* aftermarket set of headers has been laid out with 1-2 joined and 3-4 joined, then the two joined together afterward, for years. A good many original exhaust systems are also like this (my ZX10R is like this). There is not a hint of unevenness, not even at idle, which is at an RPM comparable to ours, even if the redline is in a different league.

And on this one, with the primaries so short, any pressure pulse is going to be distributed throughout the whole volume of the manifold within a small number of crank degrees anyhow. AND, with our conservative cam timing with no overlap (unlike the bike engines!) there is just no way for an exhaust pulse to screw up another cylinder's intake stroke.

It *might* be that the slight asymmetry is creating a resonance in the exhaust system downstream of the turbo. Listen to a Subaru WRX with an aftermarket exhaust and compare it to an inline-four gasser turbo with an aftermarket exhaust ... that's what this asymmetry sounds like (and the WRX is way more asymmetrical than this, because of the way the cylinders and the turbo are laid out). But this isn't a performance problem, it's just a noise/vibration muffling issue.

Compressor surge, now that's another whole separate issue.

I don't know, but I am going to E-mail chevrolet and Mopar right now and tell then that the most sought after exhaust manifolds in the world(Chevrolet center dumps and Mopars MAX WEDGE) are junk because RC and TDI Meister said so, and maybe the 100,000,000 people using them will throw them away and you guys can replace them? WHAT ARE YOU GUYS THINKING?
Today I took a stock manifold and blew compressed air in cylinder #! and it exited from all 4 primaries blowing stuff all over me. Then I blew air in the first primary of KERMA"s Manifold and it created a vacume in the 2nd primary and ALL the compressed gas exited through the collector! Come up with one better and I'll run it! Untill then, well, I guess you know what to do,Huh?

You did a nice job with the manifold wrap.
I'm wondering how do you hammer a square peg into a oval hole into a 1 1/2" round turbine inlet?
NOT TO SURE ABOUT THAT ONE.

The manifold wrap is nice and tight... I'd assume Charlie actually did it. It somewhat resembles how the packages all arrived to my house. Nice and tightly packed.

I am glad that you posted the link to the photo bucket.. we enjoyed looking at the pictures.

What I want to know is what the heck was the welder smoking/injecting before completing this section?

jsrmonster said:

Yes, I've driven 4 of them with this strange harmonic. It feels like a slight miss a gasser would give with a bad sparkplug/wire, I like the log manifold better for the smooth running oem feel.

Jeff

Click to expand...

My guess is that it would be the excessive back pressure on cyl 2+3.

GoFaster said:

Dave et al,

I don't think the slight asymmetry with the way the primary pipes are laid out will cause a problem. Dave knows how familiar I am with inline-four motorcycle engines, and *every* aftermarket set of headers has been laid out with 1-2 joined and 3-4 joined, then the two joined together afterward, for years. A good many original exhaust systems are also like this (my ZX10R is like this). There is not a hint of unevenness, not even at idle, which is at an RPM comparable to ours, even if the redline is in a different league.

And on this one, with the primaries so short, any pressure pulse is going to be distributed throughout the whole volume of the manifold within a small number of crank degrees anyhow. AND, with our conservative cam timing with no overlap (unlike the bike engines!) there is just no way for an exhaust pulse to screw up another cylinder's intake stroke.

Click to expand...

Probably the biggest problem is the merge angle, this really compounds the the cylinder pairing issue. And this WILL have an effect on cylinder filling because cyl 2+3 have more back pressure and thus less exhaust gas exits when it should especially in comparison to cyl 1+4.

Street Toys said:

I don't know, but I am going to E-mail chevrolet and Mopar right now and tell then that the most sought after exhaust manifolds in the world(Chevrolet center dumps and Mopars MAX WEDGE) are junk because RC and TDI Meister said so, and maybe the 100,000,000 people using them will throw them away and you guys can replace them? WHAT ARE YOU GUYS THINKING?
Today I took a stock manifold and blew compressed air in cylinder #! and it exited from all 4 primaries blowing stuff all over me. Then I blew air in the first primary of KERMA"s Manifold and it created a vacume in the 2nd primary and ALL the compressed gas exited through the collector! Come up with one better and I'll run it! Untill then, well, I guess you know what to do,Huh?

Click to expand...

Do you have any pictures of these chev or ford manifolds? I wouldn't be suprised if they were complete crap, very few manufacturers actually make a good manifold or a good port. Heck look at the intake manifold on our vw diesels! What a joke! Have you seen the exhaust ports in these heads? Come on just because it came from the factory doesn't mean its good and I would argue a lot of the time it means it isn't

The stock manifold has a turbo on it, not surprised it blew some air back at you, but I am surprised that you think blowing air from a compressor through an exhaust manifold to see how it reacts means a damn thing, air from a compressor is completely different from an exhaust pulse.
Better manifolds have been made if you want one PM me.

Staley said:

You did a nice job with the manifold wrap.
I'm wondering how do you hammer a square peg into a oval hole into a 1 1/2" round turbine inlet?
NOT TO SURE ABOUT THAT ONE.

Click to expand...

Yeah these holes don't match... Oh it must be for better spooling, more manifold pressure means more boost!!!!!!1111

TDIMeister said:

With a 1-3-4-2 firing order, that design of manifold will have exhaust pulses from the cylinders arriving at the secondaries separated by 180 degrees crank angle followed by 540 degrees. The secondaries will see pulses
1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1... and
0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0... respectively

Far from optimal.

A header with primaries paired 1-4 and 2-3 would go
1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0...
0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1...

That's only the beginning of it.

Click to expand...

the stock manifold is far from optimal also-- it is more of an issue with space constraints.

In order to get the primaries paired correctly and keep the primaries equal length, it would be difficult to get the manifold to fit into the space allowed.

20IndigoBlue02 said:

the stock manifold is far from optimal also-- it is more of an issue with space constraints.

In order to get the primaries paired correctly and keep the primaries equal length, it would be difficult to get the manifold to fit into the space allowed.

Click to expand...

I did it:


It was really difficult though, now that I made two and some jigs its a lot easier but figuring how to weld this thing up was a bit of a nightmare.

all I have to say is:

Damn!

Damn is right! With the Damn size of that intake combined with that damn heat from that exhaust heater that damn close to each other, that damn motor won't make it 10 damn miles

Street Toys said:

Damn is right! With the Damn size of that intake combined with that damn heat from that exhaust heater that damn close to each other, that damn motor won't make it 10 damn miles

Click to expand...

Welcome to the damn tour, please feel free to take all the damn pictures you want....

It will be fine. It's probably actually worse from the factory.

Actually, If you take a close look of the intake where the 3rd and fouth cyl's are you will notice that the exhaust primaries are directly against the intake manifold! What do you think aluminum does with heat? That configuration will disapate over 400% more heat than a "stock" exhaust manifold will and concentrate most of it at the 3rd and fourth cylinder area. Allowing cooler air to flow to the first two cylinders. If he thought a miss was present in another design, he will have a definant "LOPE" as two cyl"s will get much more air than the other two. It does not take a NASA rocket scientist to figure that one out!

Have you ever heard of thermal barrier coatigs

Yes I have and I see none present! Nore could you effectivly do it with ceramic alone. The primaries are also too close together to wrap as well. For a race care that might run for a couple minutes, it may have a chance. for a street car....no damn good at all!

Apparently you haven't noticed the close proximity of the manifolds on any counterflow head VW has ever made.

Apperently you should be the first to line up and buy this from him and report back to us and tell us what good success you've had with it!