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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old August 16th, 2018, 07:13   #1
SilverGhost
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Default Fine control of oil to reduce CO2

So found this article about a company that is selling to OEMs. Their product aims to stabilize the oil condition and supply so OEMs can engineer their cars to run closer to the edge with smaller bearings, less weight, lower friction.

Here is link to story.

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Old August 16th, 2018, 08:31   #2
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Interesting idea. Let's do the math. The average car produces 20 pounds of CO2 per mile which is 9072 Grams per mile. This new idea claims that it will reduce CO2 by 2 Grams per Kilometer. Using some generous math that would be approximately 3 to 4 Grams per mile.

Really? That would be spending a ton of money for close to zero effect. IMNSHO, Pretty Loony Bin stuff. I'm not going to argue politics or Global Warming etc, but please do read the link. Really something to think about.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesta...ing-after-all/

More thought provoking reading:
https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/na...olar-bear-pic/
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Old August 16th, 2018, 09:32   #3
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At this stage of the game, EVERYTHING is tiny increments. That is all that is left. Close to zero, is not zero. This is why things like start-stop, grill shudders, ATF warmers, etc. are all actual real things on cars right now. By themselves, they do very little. But collectively, it all adds up.

Since there is not going to be any silver bullet left for internal combustion engines, certainly nothing with the strides that EFI and catalysts and feedback loops, then....
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Old August 16th, 2018, 19:09   #4
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Ol'Rattler your math is off by a large factor. The European market based on actual sales numbers but the old test procedure was 118 g/km (in your units, about 200 grams per mile) - order of magnitude "half" a pound, not 20, which is not even remotely plausible ... The CO2 is coming from the fuel and the air going into the engine and isn't magically appearing out of nothing. https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/...hicles/cars_en

So in this case, the proposed gain is nearly 2%, which in this day and age is quite a substantial number.

This company is not at the point of selling to OEM's, though. I foresee some pretty significant hurdles, not the least of which is finding space for this, which appears to amount to a remote oil tank that slowly does an "oil change" continuously instead of all in one shot every several thousand km as is the usual practice. It also means that the vehicle will be carrying several litres of extra engine oil on board all the time, which adds weight, which counteracts the claimed benefits. Bottom line ... I have my doubts that this is going to be commercially viable ...
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Old August 16th, 2018, 23:01   #5
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I will admit, my number were not really accurate apparently. Just some numbers someone made up to make some kind of point. 2% of a reduction although small does sound like an actual benefit.

I think the concept is a lot like the dry sump systems used on aircraft and race cars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_sump

The biggest difference is that the oil is in a separate tank instead of a sump. and as the link shows, there are some advantages to a dry sump. The idea of having the filter built int the tank is brilliant. Remove the tank module and just replace it with a freshly filled tank with a renewed filter.

And really, wet sump systems hold 4 to 5 quarts of oil, you would just be moving that oil to a tank/filter module. Because a dry sump is more efficient at controlling temp you could get by with less total oil in the system.
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Old August 17th, 2018, 06:59   #6
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The selling point of the device is the cost per CO2 reduction is comparable to other technologies currently being put in cars. IE: cylinder deactivation, start/stop, micro hybridization, etc.

Some of the ideas suggested in the article include reducing the volume of oil in the crankcase to shorten warm up time. Faster to operating temp = less CO2.

Another idea is engineers have to put larger tolerances to account for oil breaking down as it ages. So this tank has fresh oil (with full additive package) that can be added to engine as needed.

Article says there is a control module in the unit that communicates with ECM. Not as many details at this point. Probably want to get their intellectual property protected before letting everyone else see inside the box.

But this much I take away from the article - not just a fancy dry sump setup, thou OEMs could treat it like a dry sump to some extent. Article does not say whether any oil is ever pumped into the box, only says pumped out of box.

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Old August 17th, 2018, 07:46   #7
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Well ya, of course the oil circulates through it. From what I read about the system it is an enhanced version of a dry sump system like what is used on gas turbine (jet engine) powered aircraft.

The electronics would monitor oil pressure, oil temperature and oil condition. No more oil changes strictly by miles. Oh, and 90 second oil changes.

Pretty clever actually. To change oil you would slide out the tank/filter module and slide in a freshly serviced tank/filter module. It would be very similar to how you replace a rack mounted black box on an aircraft.

Aircraft black box quick change rack mount tray:
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Old August 20th, 2018, 10:32   #8
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OK, but how does this address the reduced oil volume to aid engine warm up. Not too knowledgeable on dry sump systems so this may seem like a stupid question.

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Old August 20th, 2018, 18:08   #9
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Basically your crankshaft is not immersed in a bath of oil and splash lubricating the cylinder walls. The sump(s) are continually drained of oil and returned to the oil tank by scavenge pumps so the total amount of oil being used by the oil system is less.

This also makes controlling oil temperature very easy with a thermostatically controlled oil cooler. Also, oil is de-foamed at the tank so that you always have foam free oil available to the pressure pump.

A very simple dry sump system:


A more complex turbine engine variable pressure oil system:
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Old August 21st, 2018, 12:02   #10
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So I have been doing some more reading on this. The engine stays a wet sump design, but the NEXCEL unit can pump more oil in or extract oil out of the sump as needed by the engine.

So you start with just enough oil to get started and warm up the engine, say 2.5 quarts. As soon as you reach operating temperature the ECM can request additional oil be added for safety margin, say additional 2 quarts slowly added so as to not cool off engine. Oil life monitor in the engine works with oil cell and replaces some oil to replenish used additives. When oil cell and ECM both recognize oil life is used up, its time to swap a oil cell - at which time the oil cell pulls all the oil out of engine sump and into oil cell.

Most of what I have found is marketing material, but it appears to be a bit more than just a dry sump set up.

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Old August 22nd, 2018, 08:17   #11
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Sure. But the implementation of a"dry sump" makes the concept workable. The concept of a "dry sump" is sort of a misnomer. In reality you have several bearing chambers (sumps) that the scavenge pumps evacuate.

It's all about control of volume, pressure and temperature which digital control with sensors allows you to do. I really like the concept. At oil change time, you just replace the tank/filter module (oil cell?) and drive on. Less than 90 seconds for an oil/filter change and so simple my cat could almost do it? What's not to love?
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Old August 22nd, 2018, 09:04   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol'Rattler View Post
... Less than 90 seconds for an oil/filter change and so simple my cat could almost do it? What's not to love?
Huh. Obviously, you've never seen me do an oil change. I could stretch a job like this into an hour easily.


Cheers,


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Old August 28th, 2018, 13:20   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
At this stage of the game, EVERYTHING is tiny increments. That is all that is left. Close to zero, is not zero. This is why things like start-stop, grill shudders, ATF warmers, etc. are all actual real things on cars right now. By themselves, they do very little. But collectively, it all adds up.
Since there is not going to be any silver bullet left for internal combustion engines, certainly nothing with the strides that EFI and catalysts and feedback loops, then....
Well, the last part is arguable (just to be a know it all internet warrior). Direct injection was a pretty noticeable step in the right direction. And in racing, the next step has been in constant development for the last 4 years.

Formula 1 has been using something called turbulent jet ignition. Mahle has a quick blurb about it here

Another here

And adding this article just for the quote about the internal combustion engine itself (not including the hybrid systems F1 engines have these days, including the electrified motor-generator turbocharger) thermal efficiency. 45%, which is right in diesel territory.

And then you have Mazda's "spark started" "compression ignition" gas engine Skyactive-X engine. Basically there's a trend to diesel-ify gasoline engines and work towards some odd hybrid of compression ignition and spark ignition.

The trend I'm seeing, we will in fact see a huge jump in internal combustion GASOLINE engine efficiency in the near future thanks to the development of these technologies and the continued hybridization.

Unfortunately, that would also put the final nail in the coffin of diesel passenger cars and trucks most likely. Especially now that ships are going to be required to either burn cleaner fuel than bunker oil or add expensive scrubbers to continue to use the cheap fuel, we will see a further price hike in ULSD prices. Especially since there is no physical way of retrofitting a majority of ships with scrubbers by 2020. Bare minimum, we will see a several year long spike in diesel prices thanks to this move.

I hate to say it, but diesel's future is looking pretty bleak right now, and that's not even putting electrification into consideration.
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Old August 28th, 2018, 13:34   #14
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But Matt I still do not think you are going see the giant leaps forward that we had between say 1970 and 1990. I know that is a pretty broad area, but I had to be broad to be more inclusive as not all manufacturers embraced the same technologies at the same time. They sort of leap frogged back and forth, with the Germans in most every sense leading the way aside from OBD which was clearly pioneered by GM more than anyone else.

Just think of what a 1977 Rabbit would have been like compared to a 1967 Beetle. I've driven both, and owned good examples of both. A decade... a mere blink of an eye... showed HUGE strides. But now? Nothing today is that head and shoulders above what was around in 2009. And one could argue the fragile nature of some of the newest stuff means people will be wanting to dump stuff sooner (a regression in automotive terms, in my opinion).
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Old August 28th, 2018, 13:37   #15
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But now? Nothing today is that head and shoulders above what was around in 2009.
Well, some would argue that...
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