Boston Area Gel Issues

n1das

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As I have been following this thread my thoughts are the same as Davids. I believe that the fuel has been properly treated either with blending with about 20% D1 or anti gell adds. Neither of those two approaches deals with water. If you had water in your tank or the source of your fuel had water in their tanks all the winter treatment for gell point doesn't mean hill o beans. DBW has stressed in many threads here the importance of using PS White to negate water issues not just because it freezes but because it is your hpfp and injectors worst enemy. PS 911 is designed to absorb frozen water in your fuel system once it has frozen (it contains alcohol) alcohol is not a friend of your fuel pump or injectors either but in an emergency (hence 911), it might get you going again. I believe if you use PS white year round you will never have a water issue. nuff said I guess.
What MichaelB said.

Free water in diesel fuel appears to be what's killing HPFPs in CR TDIs and doing so faster than poor lubricity. People express concerns about lubricity and rightfully so but often forget about the importance of avoiding water. The HPFP in CR diesels are more susceptible to damage from slugs of free water compared to older rotary injector pump systems. Water in diesel fuel absolutely must be avoided at ALL costs.

People often mistake icing for gelling. They think they have gelling issues but actually have icing instead. Gelling seems to be the catch-all term used whether icing from water or actually gelling.

My priorities for fuel additives are (#1) to take care of any water I can't avoid getting and also to (#2) improve lubricity. Providing anti-gel for winter use and increasing Cetane levels are of secondary importance. I use an additive year round with EVERY tankful. PS Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle) is good for year round use. I don't use PS Diesel Kleen (silver bottle) because it doesn't have any anti-gel stuff and doesn't do anything for water.

My other favorite additive is Howes Lubricator Diesel Treat. I used it for a long time in my TDIs but have switched over to PS Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle). Howes contains a demulsifier to cause water to drop out so a water separator can catch it. PS contains a solubilizer to keep water completely dissolved so it can harmlessly pass through the system. I transitioned over to PS DFS because my BMWs don't have a water separator that I can drain plus the fuel filter is under the car and a PITA to get to.

Bottom line is proactively treat your fuel and fill up ONLY at high turnover stations along major routes that get lots of heavy truck traffic to avoid getting watery fuel. I also keep the tank totally FULL and topped off whenever one of my cars won't be driven for a while.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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The problem I have with this assessment is in 15 years (recently) of driving diesels I've NEVER seen any evidence of water in fuel. Not in filters, not in lines, no freezing. I have a fuel supply at home, but I also buy fuel wherever I am when traveling, and am not terribly picky about it. And water in fuel as a cause of CR HPFP failures? I don't think so. No consistent evidence of that, either.

I think the gelling issues people are experiencing this winter are the result of sloppy additive dosing or cost cutting by retailers.
 

VeeDubTDI

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I think there is something up with fuel additives in the supply chain this year. It seems to me that we're seeing an elevated number of gelling reports here on the forums.

While the temperature has been unusually cold for an extended period of time, suppliers should be treating their fuel accordingly. I agree with IBW that there is either sloppy additive dosing due to cost cutting or some other reason this year.

As such, I recommend that all TDI drivers in New England, the mid-Atlantic region and the mid-west treat their cars with Power Service Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle). I've seen reports of people using Diesel Kleen (silver bottle), which is not the appropriate product for cold weather. Remember, white = winter, silver = summer.

Gelled fuel is not only inconvenient, but it can potentially cause high pressure fuel pump damage on commonrail cars due to the lack of fuel flow required for proper pump operation.

Finally, if you start your car and you hear your in-tank fuel pump screaming, turn the engine off, warm the car up in a heated garage (if possible) and treat with the appropriate additives.

Just my $0.02 coming from two decades of diesel ownership.
 

251

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I had an issue with my CR TDI a week ago. Drove it home from work, it sat in attached unheated garage for 5 days straight (had nowhere go so didn't run it) which included subzero temperatures including a record breaking -15 F day. Garage is usually 10 F warmer than outside so it was -5 to 0 F inside garage. Yes, I use additive every tank too and in winter never let it get more than half a tank down before I refill. This is in northwestern Indiana which gets it's share of winter cold/snow at times.

So after the 5 days went to use it - started right up which was good. However leaving driveway and going up street would not exceed slow walking speed. RPM's would not go above idle (1,000) so I assumed the DSG fluid was extra thick - needing time to warm up. Backed into driveway, put it in neutral and lightly revved engine - still would not go about 1,000 rpm so I no longer suspected the DSG. I did not try to drive it on the road. Perhaps if I did it would have warmed up enough to degel the lines - or it could have quit running out on the road. I did not consider going on the road as it would not go above idle. As I was running out of time to make it to work on time put it back in garage and used a relative's gasser for the day.

Waited until weekend when temps warmed up to 20's (and garage would be about 30 F) before trying to start it again. Fired right up but still would not go above idle speed. Pulled out in driveway, let it run while I swept garage out. By then could rev it normally and it ran fine when I ran my errands that morning.

Talked to a CR TDI friend who has two of them garaged in central Michigan. Told me it was 12 F in his garage and he had trouble too. Theory is the exposed fuel lines by filter started to gel but enough got thru to let it keep running. Said after letting them idle a bit it apparently warmed up the fuel enough and had no further issues.

If true, I wonder if a space heater pointed at the fuel filter area would do the trick to avoid a reoccurance of this? Know about the Frostheater but that works with coolant, won't be of any help with fuel lines gelling or icing.

Did you guys in Boston area simply have the engine die or did it refuse to go above idle speed? I'm aware of gelling (if that's what this was) but being limited to idle speed was a new one for me - it did run smoothly with no stumbling for what that's worth. Any theories on why my engine would not go above idle?
 

n1das

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The problem I have with this assessment is in 15 years (recently) of driving diesels I've NEVER seen any evidence of water in fuel. Not in filters, not in lines, no freezing. I have a fuel supply at home, but I also buy fuel wherever I am when traveling, and am not terribly picky about it. And water in fuel as a cause of CR HPFP failures? I don't think so. No consistent evidence of that, either.

I think the gelling issues people are experiencing this winter are the result of sloppy additive dosing or cost cutting by retailers.
I have never had an issue in over 800k miles of driving diesels over the past 15 years. I proactively treat my fuel and fuel up ONLY at high turnover stations along major routes. I go where the big rigs go. I have a gas station w/diesel 0.6 miles from home but I absolutely will not fuel up there due to that station never getting any heavy truck traffic. The station isn't designed for big trucks and it's even a challenge for a tanker truck to squeeze in there to make a delivery. It is always mobbed with gassers too.

Drivbiwire has done plenty of teardowns of failed HPFPs in CR TDIs. Nearly all of them showed evidence of rust and corrosion on internal parts, indicating water ingestion had been occurring for some time.

I've witnessed a case where the water separator in the Mk4 fuel filter (1J0 127 401A) actually does work. Many people report never finding any water in the separator, leading some to think it doesn't work. Finding no water at least says you've been getting fuel that's not water contaminated.

I did a fuel filter change for a coworker on his 2000 Jetta TDI at 205k miles. We did the FF change out in the parking lot at work. The car was still running on the factory ORIGINAL filter at 205k miles. :eek: When we drained fuel from the filter, about 1/3 of the contents was dark rust colored water. :eek: It was some nasty stuff. The water separator was swamped and the fuel filter canister was rusting out from the inside. I would think the injector pump would have died long ago if the water separator wasn't doing its job, yet his ALH TDI was still running perfectly. I educated him about the importance of changing the fuel filter on schedule and regularly using an additive such as PS DFS.
 
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n1das

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IndigoBlueWagon said:
I think the gelling issues people are experiencing this winter are the result of sloppy additive dosing or cost cutting by retailers.
Yes, IMHO this is one more reason to proactively treat every tankful with PS DFS (white bottle).
 

Lug_Nut

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Speak for yourself

What I had on my oil burner's replaceable filter element was not ice. It was a soft, thicker than honey, more fluid than vasoline, 3/8 inch thich coating of amber colored snot.
I have no idea what the element on the car looks like as I've not yet replaced it and cut it open. The car is running fine now / again.
 

MichaelB

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What I had on my oil burner's replaceable filter element was not ice. It was a soft, thicker than honey, more fluid than vasoline, 3/8 inch thich coating of amber colored snot.
I have no idea what the element on the car looks like as I've not yet replaced it and cut it open. The car is running fine now / again.
Did that gooey snot return to the fluid state of fuel oil once it was warmed up?
 

AndyBees

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The problem I have with this assessment is in 15 years (recently) of driving diesels I've NEVER seen any evidence of water in fuel. Not in filters, not in lines, no freezing. I have a fuel supply at home, but I also buy fuel wherever I am when traveling, and am not terribly picky about it. And water in fuel as a cause of CR HPFP failures? I don't think so. No consistent evidence of that, either.

I think the gelling issues people are experiencing this winter are the result of sloppy additive dosing or cost cutting by retailers.

This month makes me 38 years owning and driving VW Diesels. After two winters (1980 and 81) and periodically draining (and catching) the fuel filter to see if there was any water inside, I quit. I never saw more than a drop of water during any drain and inspection.

Also, when I change fuel filters, I always drain them into a clear plastic jar for inspection. Very, very seldom do I see any evidence of water.

Now, I have often thought maybe diesel fuel might hold "moisture" in suspension, similar to humidity in the air. If so, at what temp does it "frost" out? Where does it frost out, in the tank, on the inside of the fuel lines, in the filter? Or, if it does in fact contain water in suspension, will it frost out?

BTW, I've never preferred one source of fuel over another ....... just wherever and whenever I need fuel, I fill it up (always top off).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Andy, I'm right there with you, bought my first diesel in '78. However, I don't really count my experience in the past millennium as fuel quality, although still pretty lousy, is dramatically better than it was in the 70s and 80s.

I also always drain my fuel filters into a pan and look for evidence of water. Haven't seen any yet, and I probably change about 10 fuel filters a year between my own, kids, and co-workers cars.
 

Fahrvegnugen

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My check valve clogged with something during the cold spell, and I always run stanadyne high performance lube. It could be ice or gel. There’s always some water in fuel but alcohol (such as in an additive containing it) causes corrosion too.
 

CNGVW

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I am with Peter hear I see gelling, never see water coming out of any of the filters in the shop!! I see water in gasoline tank it dos not mix and dos not mix with diesel that I have seen, this car had 2 gal of this dirty water !!! it made it from the pump to the curb then towed to 2 shops then to me for the fix!

Andy, I'm right there with you, bought my first diesel in '78. However, I don't really count my experience in the past millennium as fuel quality, although still pretty lousy, is dramatically better than it was in the 70s and 80s.
I also always drain my fuel filters into a pan and look for evidence of water. Haven't seen any yet, and I probably change about 10 fuel filters a year between my own, kids, and co-workers cars.
 

93celicaconv

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Great thread. Although it makes me question our US infrastructure involving diesel delivery to consumers, now that I have my first TDI. Wow. Cold weather in winter in cold-weather states - and diesel gelling problems. Water in diesel tanks/water separators/filter housings (and where does all the water come from - fuel station storage tanks? the distribution system? air condensing out water within the car's fuel tank?).

I get it, given the situation, about being proactive when one recognizes the situation (like using PSW at least in cold months if not all year long) to help reduce the potential for gelling or water freezing or passing water through the HPFPs - just not sure how our US infrastructure got to be this bad for diesel owners though. Would rather solve the problem and treat the symptoms.
 
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VeeDubTDI

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Great thread. Although it make me question our US infrastructure involving diesel delivery to consumers, now that I have my first TDI. Wow. Cold weather in winter in cold-weather states - and diesel gelling problems. Water in diesel tanks/water separators/filter housings (and where does all the water come from - fuel station storage tanks? the distribution system? air condensing out water within the car's fuel tank?).

I get it, given the situation, about being proactive when one recognizes the situation (like using PSW at least in cold months if not all year long) to help reduce the potential for gelling or water freezing or passing water through the HPFPs - just not sure how our US infrastructure got to be this bad for diesel owners though. Would rather solve the problem and treat the symptoms.
While this year seems to be particularly bad for gelling, the fueling infrastructure has never been great. From algae to water to gelling and beyond, there have been cautionary tales and horror stories about fueling in the US for as long as I can remember.
 

red16vdub

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Maybe most of the issues we experience with fuel , has more to do with poor maintenance of the actual stations, than the fuel being delivered it self. Just a thought.


Bajan
 

n1das

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While this year seems to be particularly bad for gelling, the fueling infrastructure has never been great. From algae to water to gelling and beyond, there have been cautionary tales and horror stories about fueling in the US for as long as I can remember.
The algae in diesel fuel is anaerobic bacteria. No Oxygen is needed (anaerobic), only food (hydrocarbons in diesel fuel) and WATER :eek: are needed. Bacteria feeds on the fuel and growth will be limited by the available water in the fuel. Avoiding water in diesel fuel will prevent anaerobic bacteria growth.

Fueling up ONLY at high diesel turnover stations along major routes will help prevent these problems. Go where the big rigs go to fuel up.

:)
 

Lug_Nut

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Although that is not diesel road fuel, it is also not ice and not water contamination.

'nuff said.
 

Lug_Nut

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.... I have often thought maybe diesel fuel might hold "moisture" in suspension, similar to humidity in the air. If so, at what temp does it "frost" out? Where does it frost out, in the tank, on the inside of the fuel lines, in the filter? Or, if it does in fact contain water in suspension, will it frost out?
Petro diesel does not retain much water. Water will tend to settle out in a layer. The water that separated out and sank to the bottom of the filter will freeze, but the fuel will still flow above that.

Biodiesel is very hygroscopic. It will adsorb and hold great amounts of water in suspension.
A bio/petro blend that would be good to 0F with "dry" bio, might be only good to 25F. Don't forget, that the bio will adsorb any water that were in the petro. The water separator that would retain the water from petro only, won't catch water when the bio has in effect locked the water within and between its molecules.
The wet bio fuel will freeze in the tank, lines, filter, but usually the lines are the plug point due to the large area to volume ratio.

Water is probably not a big concern for most, as most don't run bio as I do.
 

hskrdu

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But this winter, I'm having troubles with worn ignition switches dying in the cold. In my wife's 2 cars, anyway. My 4-dr I'm the original purchaser, and I've never hung other keys on the fob. Hers - we don't know their history, but judging by the feel, previous owners have been hanging their workout barbells on the fob. Subsequently, on the coldest mornings, we are seeing ignition switch refusals to start.
PH-What's the relationship between the temp and the ignition switch working/not working?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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A co-worker was having what he thought were problems with his ignition switch on his '02 Golf earlier this week. Turns out it was a weak battery.
 

Fahrvegnugen

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I thought my ignition switch was bad so I replaced it. A while later it randomly refused to start again. I replaced the battery cables and it hasn't happened since. Battery is what affects the ignition switch in cold weather, due to being weak or having loose/corroded connection.
 

Powder Hound

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PH-What's the relationship between the temp and the ignition switch working/not working?
I had troubles when the temp (absolute, not counting any wind chill) was -5F or lower on the Jetta, the one I fixed. The NB was probably more like -8F or lower.

The one with the most wear was resolved with a new OEM switch, and the other's (the NB TDI) wear was not as bad and has only displayed one no-start episode. I figure as long as my wife doesn't have that happen to her, I won't have to replace it for quite a while (several years) as we're planning on moving south later this year. (I.e. we probably won't be seeing temps this cold after this winter, ever again.)

And the batteries in both of those cars are great - one is 3 months old and the other is about 18 months old. They're both Deka built 'Duracell' branded batteries, AGM, very high RC indicating at least 80 AH capacity (for the one, slightly smaller for the NB because it can't fit a group 49 size) sold by Sam's Club. Since the Jetta with the replaced switch is working perfectly now, I think it was the switch, not the battery. And if it goes dead when you turn it to crank, and then it cranks when you push the key forward, then it probably isn't the battery. This behavior demonstrates internal wear in the switch (IMO, of course - seems logical, anyway). If it has this kind of wear, and cranks anyway, then it is probably arcing inside, and could get really exciting. You might be smelling it in that case.

Anyway, if it was just a slow crank, I would never have played with the ignition switch. But to me, the going completely dead with no solenoid clicks or dash lights when the key was turned to crank, then cranking when the key was pushed forward, says ignition switch.

Cheers,

PH
 
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93celicaconv

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I hate to ask the question, but why are posts involving ignition switches in a thread titled "Boston Area Gel Issues"? For others to find information on ignition switches in the future, they likely won't look in a thread with this title.
 

251

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I hate to ask the question, but why are posts involving ignition switches in a thread titled "Boston Area Gel Issues"? For others to find information on ignition switches in the future, they likely won't look in a thread with this title.
I understand your logic here but it's also relevant that a failing ignition switch or weak battery can have same effect as gelled fuel - as in vehicle won't start (or will fail on road in case of weak battery or gelled fuel) which is the main concern under discussion here. Many threads here and elsewhere tend to get some "thread drift".

Also, if one searches for keywords here about ignition switches this thread should pop up in the search results. Note I said keywords, not searching for thread subject - there is a difference!
 

hskrdu

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I had troubles when the temp (absolute, not counting any wind chill) was -5F or lower on the Jetta, the one I fixed. The NB was probably more like -8F or lower.

The one with the most wear was resolved with a new OEM switch, and the other's (the NB TDI) wear was not as bad and has only displayed one no-start episode.

And the batteries in both of those cars are great - one is 3 months old and the other is about 18 months old... And if it goes dead when you turn it to crank, and then it cranks when you push the key forward, then it probably isn't the battery. This behavior demonstrates internal wear in the switch (IMO, of course - seems logical, anyway). If it has this kind of wear, and cranks anyway, then it is probably arcing inside, and could get really exciting. You might be smelling it in that case.

Anyway, if it was just a slow crank, I would never have played with the ignition switch. But to me, the going completely dead with no solenoid clicks or dash lights when the key was turned to crank, then cranking when the key was pushed forward, says ignition switch. Cheers,
PH
Thanks PH. I agree with your diagnosis- The troubleshooting for a NSC points to ignition switch under the circumstances you describe.

My question was more about the relationship between the temp and the switch. I was thinking that a failing switch would show itself regardless of temp, while fuel gelling as a cause of a NSC would (obviously) only take place in bitter temps, and weak battery as cause of a NSC is much more likely during cold temps.
 

hskrdu

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I hate to ask the question, but why are posts involving ignition switches in a thread titled "Boston Area Gel Issues"? For others to find information on ignition switches in the future, they likely won't look in a thread with this title.
If Fred's kept threads restricted to title content, instead of relevant associated topics, we'd all be stuck with only a few solutions to a problem. Powder Hound mentioned ignition switches as one portion of his NSC, such that some members thinking they have a gelling issue, might be enlightened to discover that they have a different issue altogether. Does this help bt (the OP)? No, not unless his issue is other than gelling, but it may help many others who still use a key to start the car and find they have the problem that PH described. I can't count the number of times I thought I knew what the source of a problem was, only for a good thread to lead me to the actual culprit.
 

93celicaconv

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If Fred's kept threads restricted to title content, instead of relevant associated topics, we'd all be stuck with only a few solutions to a problem. Powder Hound mentioned ignition switches as one portion of his NSC, such that some members thinking they have a gelling issue, might be enlightened to discover that they have a different issue altogether. Does this help bt (the OP)? No, not unless his issue is other than gelling, but it may help many others who still use a key to start the car and find they have the problem that PH described. I can't count the number of times I thought I knew what the source of a problem was, only for a good thread to lead me to the actual culprit.
Yes, when you look at it as you explained, it does make sense. Appreciate the inputs.
 

Powder Hound

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Thanks PH. I agree with your diagnosis- The troubleshooting for a NSC points to ignition switch under the circumstances you describe.

My question was more about the relationship between the temp and the switch. I was thinking that a failing switch would show itself regardless of temp, while fuel gelling as a cause of a NSC would (obviously) only take place in bitter temps, and weak battery as cause of a NSC is much more likely during cold temps.
I agree. In my case, I theorize that it might have to do with the differences between the coefficient of expansion at low temps - what a slight amount of wear will do when it gets cold, even though it works fine at 30 or 40 degrees warmer. That might be a contributor to the weak battery cause - if the battery is marginal, a little more resistance during the glow cycle, and the battery voltage dropping just enough that it can't bridge a wear-caused gap. It is hard to say, and it would probably take a lot more resources than any of us have to figure it all out under controlled conditions.
 
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