Turbo DOA

Myco

Active member
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Location
Central WI
TDI
'99.5 Jetta TDI BLK - Sold '06 Jetta TDI White For sale
Hi everyone,

I am going to try to be as delicate with this as possible as I realize there are just a few of you here that actually like your TDI's.
Last week the temp dropped into the zero range here in WI and for the tenth time in two years, and my TDI gelled and left my wife stranded on I-90.
I have been dilligent with following VW recommended maintenance and have been running what we are told has been a 70/30 blend with the stanadyne "one shot" additive religiously October-Late April. Still the gel.
Anyway the car was towed in and dealer checked it out and said that in addition to the gel we had a much larger problem. Turbo was dead.

Still barely under warranty (98,000)so that was covered, but they're talking $600 for de-carbonizing, what ever that means. In addition we are told the MAF is gone too. Will do it for cost, another $296. Dealer service rep acknowledged that this is becoming more common with the 99TDI's with >80,000 miles.
Finally...the question. Anyone else seeing this problem (besides the MAF), and can I expect to have this happen again if I hang onto the car for another couple years? Tips on preventing this? What the heck is de-carbonizing? Sorry this is so long


Myco
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Intake manifolds clog with crap from EGR and CCV. Search forums, it has been explained 1,048,937 times before, and so has the permanent solution.

I would like to get an explanation of why they think your turbo is shot. If the MAF sensor lets go, you'll have no power ... and therefore it will make little boost pressure.

Regarding the fuel situation ... You need to fill up someplace else, and if better properly-winterized fuel is not available, you need to use a REAL anti-gel additive, there are many choices available at truck stops.

FWIW, I have NEVER had any fuel problems in Canada, I've had one tank of absolutely horrid stuff from a Flying J station in Indiana.
 

Myco

Active member
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Location
Central WI
TDI
'99.5 Jetta TDI BLK - Sold '06 Jetta TDI White For sale
Thanks Brian,
I have spent some time reviewing some (obviously not all) of the posts related to the problems and solutions related to the EGR, CCV, and MAF sensors. While I understand the basic function of these components, I am hardly a mechanic. I guess I am curious as to why so many of you regulars here know so much about these topics ( and I mean that with all sincerity) and yet the dealerships and their mechanics don't seem to have a clue. I mean I would think that they would actually want to keep their customers happy.
Regarding the fuel...believe me, we have tried almost every brand of fuel on the market. VW even took a sample of the fuel that had gelled at one point and sent it in to be analyzed (results were inconclusive)
We tried a variety of anti-gels and even talked to some of the truck drivers about anti-gels, everyone has an opinion. We were then told by VW that we "had" to use the stanadyne One Shot. Which we have been doing. We have also talked to the gas station owners about whether or not anyone else reported any problems with gelling last week. No luck there either, no problems reported.

Just got off the phone with service manager.
Update on the MAF sensor...guess what. They disovered the MAF sensor, AFTER they replaced the turbo! They noticed it still had poor power. Give me a break.
BTW all of this was after the 100,000 mile service (I would have thought they would have checked the MAF then if it is such an issue).

This may sound increasingly stupid as i go along here, but could the MAF problem have contributed to the fuel gel problem. I wouldn't think so, but that doesn't mean much.
Thanks,

Myco
 

MITBeta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Location
Boston's Metro South-West
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 2004 Sprinter CDI Passenger (Mid/High), former: 1996 Passat TDI Variant
Myco:

If you haven't done so already, you may want to be sure that your
Relay 109 is not the old style one. I'm not sure how you know that
the fuel gelled, other than what the dealer told you, but if you have
an old style 109 (the main power relay) it could exhibit symptoms
similar to gelled fuel. Not having all the information that you do,
I'm just throwing this out as a possibility/suggestion. It seems odd
that if you're using winterized diesel AND anti-gel additives that you
should repeated have this problem.

In regard to your question about how all of the "amateur" posters here
are so knowledgeable, yet the dealers know so little:

Consider that there are now more than 8000 registered posters on this
forum. Clearly, not everyone who registers here sticks around, but
over the years the vast number of frequent posters have learned a lot
from each other about exactly how these cars work. The information
accumulated incrementally, but now represents a massive amount. Many
of the people here are engineers or mechanics themselves and find
great joy in figuring out how their car works, sometimes nearly taking
the whole thing apart, just to put it back together again. Also,
people are here because they LOVE and CARE for their car.

In contrast, there is no dealer network, so every time a new problem
comes into a dealership, there's no knowledge base on how to fix it,
other than the Tech Service Bulletins that are issued from time to
time, but usually only after the problem being addresses has occurred
thousands of times. The dealer across town may have seen a problem 10
times and knows how to fix it, but he's not telling his
competition... why should he? The dealer's interest in your car is
strictly business: how much money can he make on your car today or
over time? Further, the techs that work on these cars are being paid
to do so... their motivation is entirely different than the motivation
of the forum members -- they have no love for our cars, only for their
own paychecks. Lastly, TDIs are vastly outnumbered by VW gassers, and
so most dealerships see very few of them come through their service
departments. Practice makes perfect (even though most dealers still
know how to screw up a gasser as well as a TDI), and if there's not a
lot of TDI volume, there's not a lot of practice, and therefore
there's no perfection.

Good luck with your car... let us know how things turn out!
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Tom DEMAND that they give you the old turbo! Next get your car out of there!!!

Give me a call or drop an email. I don't liev very far from you.

DB
Contact info is in my profile.
 

Myco

Active member
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Location
Central WI
TDI
'99.5 Jetta TDI BLK - Sold '06 Jetta TDI White For sale
MITBeta,

Well as someone who had almost given up on TDI's, I have felt a real rush of renewed enthusiasm since finding this site. I still have some major issues with how VW handles there customer service, but from the sounds of things I'm guessing I'm not alone.
As for the gelling vs relay 109, I'm not sure which relay I have (old or new) I'll have to do some digging around here to see how to tell the difference. The only reason I just assumed that this was a gelling problem and not something else, has been the correlation between the ambient air temp and the occurrence of the problem. Never happens except when it is chilly (<20 degrees F). If this relay problem is also temp related I'll definitely look into it.

Thanks for the info, much appreciated,

Myco
 

TDITONY

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2001
Location
Milwaukee WI
TDI
02 Jetta GLS TDi Black
Tom,

I too live in Wisconsin. Milwaukee where we haven't had that much cold weather but I have been all over the state.

Gel this winter?!? WOW, I find that hard to believe. I think the stealer is pulling your leg and grasping at straws.

Even prior to treating my fuel I have had no problems with cold weather starts nor did I with my last TDI.

Get out of that dealer FAST. DriveBy can help as can Garrett. Did they give you any of the codes? You should have those too. Damn dealers.

TDiTony
02 Jetta GLS
 

Myco

Active member
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Location
Central WI
TDI
'99.5 Jetta TDI BLK - Sold '06 Jetta TDI White For sale
Drivbiwire,

I asked for the turbo, but the service manager said no. He said that since it was still under warranty VW might want it back or might at least want to examine it when the field reps come in. He did offer to give me the MAF sensor, but I saw no point in getting that back.
Thanks,

I'll be in touch

Myco
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Could we possibly get an *exact* description of the symptoms that led you to bring the car to the dealer in the first place?

Did the car shut down abruptly and not restart, or would it simply not start in the morning at all, or would it be OK for a while and then gradually lose power over a few minutes, or was it gradually losing power over a period of months but basically the same from one drive to the next, or would it seem to be all OK and then abruptly lose power (although still keep running)?

Wouldn't you LOVE to tell this dealer that the real problem is a $20 relay and they've been barking up the wrong tree ...
 

Myco

Active member
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Location
Central WI
TDI
'99.5 Jetta TDI BLK - Sold '06 Jetta TDI White For sale
The gelling has been a problem since we have had the car (Nov 99). We started out just using bleded fuel until the first gel and have been adding anti-gel ever since. We have had it to three dealerships (Stevens Point, Madison, and EVS in Menomonee Falls) EVS actually tried to help, thought the problem was the fuel filter not being changed when it was supposed to (Stevens Point dealer charged me for it though), but alas the problem has reoccurred. It makes me nervous to drive the car on any long trips on the coldest days of winter, and even the not so cold.
I have heard from plenty of people that never have had a problem, but I have also talked to a lot of VW mechanics that see plenty of this type of problem. I don't know what to think anymore.
No codes yet, but I've got some other parts on the way.
Thanks,

Myco
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
You're saying the fuel is "gelling" - that is presuming that this is the problem, when in fact it may be something else. What were the SYMPTOMS? What did you experience when driving the vehicle?

Sorry to be pushy, but we need to go back to the SYMPTOMS to evaluate whether there may be potential causes other than gelling.
 

Myco

Active member
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Location
Central WI
TDI
'99.5 Jetta TDI BLK - Sold '06 Jetta TDI White For sale
GoFaster,

Okay, let me back up a bit. First, I think there are two problems that I'm dealing with although I could be wrong. The first problem related to the gelling has been happening since the first real cold snap since the car was new. The car has always started just fine, even outside, with no heater. The symptoms start to appear after driving for varied lengths of time. Usually a rather sudden loss of power and then it cuts out (65 to 0 within 10-20 seconds). Sometimes, the car will restart after leaving it set for a 10-15 minutes, but will only limp along with little power for a few more miles and then quit again. Sometimes it will idle, but not have the available RPM's to get under way. Usually won't restart more than once. Keep in mind this has really only been a problem when the Hg drops below 20, usually closer to zero.

Now the second problem related to the turbo, or at least so I thought has been much more gradual. My wife is the main driver of the TDI, so she probably never noticed the gradual loss of power. However, when I would get in it from time to time, I thought it was slightly more sluggish each time. Fuel economy didn't seem to suffer much though, so I thought maybe it was just my imagination. Then I didn't drive the car for about a month and I got in and noticed it was a slug. Couldn't hold speed going up a hill without mashing the pedal, no pickup, etc.
The dealerships have for the most part always just hauled the car inside and left it thaw out and then sent us on our way with a bill for $40 - $60. One dealer changed the fuel filter after indicating it may contribute to problems with gelling. ( I can imagine it would be tough to pump gel through a filter).
Anyway, hope that helps, let me know what you think.

UPDATE... We got the TDI back from the dealer today and the car is running much better!
I would hope so with a new turbo, new MAF sensor, clean intake, new EGR, etc. Now the goal is 1) To keep it running like this, 2)Not have it leave us stranded 3-4 times each winter.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
To keep the intake clean from this point forward, you need to do something about the crankcase vent and/or EGR systems, as I noted in my first reply near the top.

The other issue does sound like fuel starvation but with the way this winter has been, "gelling" seems scarcely possible. Is there any evidence of water contamination? (Water can freeze up in the fuel lines and cause this.) There are special additives you can get to disperse water in diesel fuel systems. Run the tank as close to empty as you dare, put in the water-dispersing additive, then fill up with known good fuel, and repeat that on the next tank. I would switch fuel suppliers, if I were you ... and only fill up at stations that have a lot of diesel fuel traffic (i.e. truck stops).

What about fuel tank venting? If it happens again, and the car comes to a halt, take off the fuel cap and see what happens. If there is a huge "swoosh" of air going in, you've got a fuel tank venting issue.

I have heard that some early A4 TDI's had a check valve in the fuel line that had to be replaced with a different one to solve some problems that appeared to be fuel gelling (but were really due to this check valve).
 

VelvetFoot

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2001
Location
Sand Lake, NY
TDI
NB, 2000, Yellow
I remember as well that there is some kind of mod that VW can do on the fuel pickup in the tank in the real cold climates.

Hey, look on the bright side, you got a brand new turbo for free!
 

car54

theGAME
Joined
Dec 5, 2000
Location
Woodbridge VA
TDI
2002 Jetta
You need to STOP taking your car to this dealer. Call Drivbiwire or garrettp NOW. they will give you more help in an hour than your dealer ever has. Fuel doesnt gel this much, especially not with an additive. you have some other problem with your car, probably very simple. Dont give up on diesel cars. If it was a bad technology, do you think truckers would use diesels?

All you need to do is get someone who KNOWS what they are doing, and garrettp and drivbiwire are just the people you need. If you ever want to see how well your car can run, give them a call. I'll even relist their phone numbers for you.

Garrettp (Garrett): 920-834-2672

Drivbiwire (pete) : (219)845-6272, (219)902-4137

Call them and let them help you! never go back to the dealer!


Good luck.
 

mechanist

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Ebenezer, Saskatchewan, Canada
TDI
97 Passat silver like the rest, 2005 B5.5 in dirty black, 2015 Passat Highline auto white.
Your fuel trouble does sound like starvation. I have had this happen to me exactly once, at -52C years ago... I doubt very much if gelling is the trouble. If you have a good additive in BEFORE the gelling potentially occurs, then it is supposed to not let it happen. Two things to do if it is gelling, which is just precipitation of the longer chain parrafins out of the blend, not where fuel turns to something jiggly. Add kerosene to dissolve the precipitate. Add unleaded gas to disolve the precipitate. It doesn't take much to accomplish this- on the order of a quart or so for a half tank. or I guess a third option, get the car into a warm place like the dealer has been doing. This does however sound very much like yours still has the undersize check valve on top of the fuel tank. These were supposed to be changed out under warranty if you lived in a cold climate I was told. Access is from under the rear seat IIRC.

All this said, you have a refrigerator I assume. It is cold in the freezer. Put fuel in a clear glass jar, double or triple freezer bag it, let it get cold in the freezer. Gelled fuel is cloudy, the precipitate clogs the fuel filter, it isn't a case of making jelly. That's just a poor term for it. The tdi should not gel at the filter anyway- fuel return from the pump should keep this warm enough. If the war department vetoes this test, try for an outside spot on a cool night shielded from morning sun.

Might even be algae in the tank, collapsed interior of a fuel line, something that has to be affected when it gets cold... Too bad your dealer is of so little help. They have all the resources at their disposal, and none of the skill to diagnose it would seem. Pity, they should stick to oil changes that being the case....

I would take him up on the maf sensor, it might be good after all:) If the turbo isn't needed for warranty, you still want the thing too. I think all they want for warranty these days is a list of dtc's.
later...
-James
 
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