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TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

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Old July 24th, 2016, 14:28   #1
redrocketTDI
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Default Diesel emission NOx with diesel and Bio-Diesel

So after hearing this whole DieselGate BS.

My question is that what are the NOx reading with vehicle driven with nothing but pure diesel compared to one with bio-diesel.

As an ex-Mercedes Benz, Sprinter, Smart Technician. I know how harmful bio-diesel is to the engine and emission devices. Where I would like to see more independent test on vehicle readings on emission at the pipe. Since a vehicle on a rolling chassis will emit less NOx then one which is driving in a extra urban environment.

I seen how bad bio diesel can rust a fuel system and cause the engine to seize when oil is not replace every 4 to 5k.

I have seen the video from fast lane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvI2oeBPtY

Which is feel like someone does not how a vehicle runs on a dyno. This testing is so wrong. Should have a five gas analyzer and need to disengage traction on twos. If anyone knows that engine power will reduce when traction is lost.
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Old July 25th, 2016, 10:34   #2
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Bio diesel does not cause an engine to rust. Water left in improperly made bio does. Bio is also not harmful to the engine, but can be to emissions equipment that is used/implemented as VW has done it by post injection.
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Old July 25th, 2016, 15:26   #3
redrocketTDI
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We has the bio diesel rusting the fuel system from the filler neck to the injectors. I have photos of bio diesel oil sludge the engine oil and seizing. MB would reject warranty claims and engine replacement with bio diesel found in the vehicle. We had a 2015 GL350 with om642 engine that had sludge which was very badly at 5,000 miles on the engine.

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Old July 25th, 2016, 15:35   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redrocketTDI View Post
We has the bio diesel rusting the fuel system from the filler neck to the injectors. I have photos of bio diesel slugging the engine oil and seizing. MB would reject warranty claims and engine replacement with bio diesel found in the vehicle. We had a 2015 GL350 with om642 engine that slugged very badly at 5,000 miles on the engine.
Who is we? What is slugging?
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Old July 25th, 2016, 16:18   #5
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Bad bio with water left in it can do this (rust). As stated before bio in the oil is a function of post combustion injection emissions routines. If you have rust it is due to improperly made/processed bio and not the bio itself. I also have no idea what slugging is. Do you mean sludge? You might want to try proof reading your posts before posting so others can understand better what you mean. Any auto mfg would reject claims for 100% bio use that I know of. A 2015 MB with common rail and dpf shouldn't be burning 100% bio anyways. At least not any that isn't commercially produced using the newer processes. Here is an example and is available today in California. Newer cars require better fuel than the old method allows.

https://www.neste.com/na/en/customer...newable-diesel

"NEXBTL (Next Generation Biomass to Liquid) is a renewable diesel product developed and patented by Neste Oil. It is not called biodiesel. Biodiesel refers to 'traditional' biofuel, and the chemical composition of such fuel is different from that of both fossil diesel and renewable diesel. Fuels manufactured from ester (FAME, Fatty Acid Methyl Ester), which is made from vegetable oil, are called biodiesels, and only NEXBTL is called renewable diesel."
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Old July 26th, 2016, 06:15   #6
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is the OP confusing biodiesel with veg oil?
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Old July 26th, 2016, 07:35   #7
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Would anyone be dumb enough to put veg oil into a 2015 MB? I guess there may be a few individuals out there. If someone did that it would be hard to believe they thought warranty would apply to anything engine related.
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Old July 26th, 2016, 08:37   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 View Post
Would anyone be dumb enough to put veg oil into a 2015 MB? I guess there may be a few individuals out there. If someone did that it would be hard to believe they thought warranty would apply to anything engine related.
I'm sure we'd still be surprised, given the things ANY n00b car owner has done or will do.

While changing out a bunch of stuff on my Golf, there was clear evidence of biodiesel - it was still clinging to bushings on things like shift cables or the dogbone mount, and my mechanic thinks it led to my tandem pump having a steady leak, among other things (it smells just like cooking oil).
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2004 Golf GLS 5MT -
Malone Stage 4, VNT17, DC Stage 2 clutch, buzzken 2.5" straight pipe, MFA cluster swap, dieselgeek Panzer plate and short shifter, Bosal towbar, Tekonsha P3 brake controller, Hopkins short-proof trailer light converter, darkside SMIC, intake manifold, and tip pipe, PD150 airbox
2005 Jetta Wagon GLS (mom's car) - Malone Stage 4, VNT17, MFA cluster swap, Panzer Plate, buzzken 2.5" straight pipe, darkside SMIC
2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI (mom's car) - stock for now...

Other diesels:
Ford 5900 tractor
Ford 3400 Industrial tractor
2016 Mahindra XTV (1L Kohler diesel)
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Old July 26th, 2016, 09:42   #9
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Bad fuel is bad fuel...be it unwashed homebrew, or some bio from "a guy" ....
Commercial bio fuel meets specs....and does the same thing as the lube addatives that people add...many places sell 1-2% with ULSD to ensure lube...my local fuel dealer does when I buy fuel down in Massachusetts...
Some people are just stupid...bet some used oil from a turkey fryer might have gotten used...perhaps even in converted, or after watching a u-tube video on how to make bio DIESEL....
As far as emission's...
Yes, tests have been done...emissions are HIGHER in most cases, but seemed to vary based on the feedstock, but most studies say the net plus is from biodiesel since the differences are so low.
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Old July 26th, 2016, 09:57   #10
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Isn't NOx formed from nitrogen and oxygen in the air during high-temperature combustion?

If one fuel results in a lower combustion chamber temperature than the other, then less NOx will be formed at the lower temperature.

If the combustion chamber temperature is the same, I would think NOx formation will be equal between the two fuels.
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Old July 26th, 2016, 15:05   #11
redrocketTDI
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I work and live in Chicago. We had to have bio-diesel fuel samples sent to labs and had some with 60% bio in the fuel. The pumps say up to 20% but it is independent company that make the fuel and ship to mobil or shell. Which bio-diesel starts to gel at 5 degree Fahrenheit.
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Old July 26th, 2016, 15:16   #12
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Your problem, if you are correct is with the seller then. Selling fuel that doesn't meet spec is illegal. Turn them in and sue them for damages. The old method of producing biodiesel worked okay for the older model cars. Newer models will have to use better fuel that comes from GTL or BTL type processes. The Neste fuel being sold in California is of this type and matches petroleum diesel very closely, but has even better specs. It doesn't gel up like the older stuff and has very high cetane values as well. It is a much better fuel than the old types. You won't make it in your backyard shed though.
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Old July 26th, 2016, 17:01   #13
pkhoury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redrocketTDI View Post
I work and live in Chicago. We had to have bio-diesel fuel samples sent to labs and had some with 60% bio in the fuel. The pumps say up to 20% but it is independent company that make the fuel and ship to mobil or shell. Which bio-diesel starts to gel at 5 degree Fahrenheit.
That's crazy. In my travels between TX and CA (or even on my recent trip to the East Coast), I've seen pumps vary between "contains 5% bio/renewable diesel" or "up to 20%..."

It concerns me if this is more prevalent at other stations in other states, or if this was just an isolated problem.

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Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 View Post
Your problem, if you are correct is with the seller then. Selling fuel that doesn't meet spec is illegal. Turn them in and sue them for damages. The old method of producing biodiesel worked okay for the older model cars. Newer models will have to use better fuel that comes from GTL or BTL type processes. The Neste fuel being sold in California is of this type and matches petroleum diesel very closely, but has even better specs. It doesn't gel up like the older stuff and has very high cetane values as well. It is a much better fuel than the old types. You won't make it in your backyard shed though.
Any idea how much cetane it has? I remember calling Shell, ConocoPhilips, and Chevron a few years ago. The first was clueless about cetane (call center in the Philippines), the latter two stated the cetane in its fuel was above 48 in CA. I've also seen numerous pumps in the Southern states state "minimum 40 cetane," but I think that's the legal minimum anyways, unless other states have higher minimum cetane ratings?
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2004 Golf GLS 5MT -
Malone Stage 4, VNT17, DC Stage 2 clutch, buzzken 2.5" straight pipe, MFA cluster swap, dieselgeek Panzer plate and short shifter, Bosal towbar, Tekonsha P3 brake controller, Hopkins short-proof trailer light converter, darkside SMIC, intake manifold, and tip pipe, PD150 airbox
2005 Jetta Wagon GLS (mom's car) - Malone Stage 4, VNT17, MFA cluster swap, Panzer Plate, buzzken 2.5" straight pipe, darkside SMIC
2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI (mom's car) - stock for now...

Other diesels:
Ford 5900 tractor
Ford 3400 Industrial tractor
2016 Mahindra XTV (1L Kohler diesel)
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Old July 26th, 2016, 17:24   #14
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it's even funnier when you ask the gas station attendants about cetane content and they give me the look like I'm questioning the quality of the diesel fuel.

one guy's reply to me was pretty good...he said Mercedes diesels fill up here too.

NJ is one of the only states in USA where we cannot handle fuel fill ups without attendant help..so I avoid peak times when filing...hate that rule
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Old July 27th, 2016, 02:28   #15
pkhoury
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it's even funnier when you ask the gas station attendants about cetane content and they give me the look like I'm questioning the quality of the diesel fuel.

one guy's reply to me was pretty good...he said Mercedes diesels fill up here too.

NJ is one of the only states in USA where we cannot handle fuel fill ups without attendant help..so I avoid peak times when filing...hate that rule
Yeah, I found that out a week ago. OR is the same way, but diesel is exempt. Apparently not NJ, and I top off my tank (gives me an extra 1-2 gallons). I ended up filling up when I got back to VA just to avoid that law.

And most fuel stations I've been to have no idea what the hell cetane is - I usually get blank stares.
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2010 Jetta Sportwagen - Malone DSG tune, Malone Stage 3.5, CR170, buzzken 3" straight pipe(resonator deleted), PolarFIS, Panzer plate, front and rear fogs, Bosal towhitch, Bilstein B8/Neuspeed 28mm swaybar, 2micron CP3 upgrade kit
2004 Golf GLS 5MT -
Malone Stage 4, VNT17, DC Stage 2 clutch, buzzken 2.5" straight pipe, MFA cluster swap, dieselgeek Panzer plate and short shifter, Bosal towbar, Tekonsha P3 brake controller, Hopkins short-proof trailer light converter, darkside SMIC, intake manifold, and tip pipe, PD150 airbox
2005 Jetta Wagon GLS (mom's car) - Malone Stage 4, VNT17, MFA cluster swap, Panzer Plate, buzzken 2.5" straight pipe, darkside SMIC
2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI (mom's car) - stock for now...

Other diesels:
Ford 5900 tractor
Ford 3400 Industrial tractor
2016 Mahindra XTV (1L Kohler diesel)
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