Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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turbobrick240

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Germany Ends Tesla Model S Subsidies In Massive Blow To Company's Government Funded Business Plan
Apparently German government officials have finally woken up to the realization that it's utterly ridiculous to use tax revenue generated primarily from middle and low-income households to fund subsidy payments to rich people buying $100,000 luxury sports cars.

Oops.
That's not a surprise. The domestic auto manufacturers are an important and influential force in the German economy & political sphere. We take the same sort of protectionist actions over here. The subsidy removal may not have much of an impact on Model S sales there. And it shouldn't have any impact on eventual model 3 sales.
I also read the Reuters piece- it actually seemed to be written by adults. The guys at Zerohedge have been huffing too much Russian troll flatulence and methane bubbling up from the fever swamps, imo. :)
 

nwdiver

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....never did like EVs:mad:
Why?

I hate ICE because I was in Iraq for 8 months ensuring our supply of oil wasn't disrupted. Was there a war to secure our supply of sunlight and wind that I missed?

I hate ICE because I was part of Operation Enduring Freedom fighting Al Qaeda who was ~100% funded by oil sales. Does the sale of sunlight and wind also somehow fund terrorism in a way I'm unaware?

I hate ICE because there are thousands of peer reviewed studies explaining how our addiction to petroleum for fuel is jeopardizing our future quality of life. Are there similar studies about dangers to an addiction to sunlight and wind?

If I've been misinformed please post your sources.
 
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2015vwgolfdiesel

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Why?

I hate ICE because I was in Iraq for 8 months ensuring our supply of oil wasn't disrupted. Was there a war to secure our supply of sunlight and wind that I missed?

I hate ICE because I was part of Operation Enduring Freedom fighting Al Qaeda who was ~100% funded by oil sales. Does the sale of sunlight and wind also somehow fund terrorism in a way I'm unaware?

I hate ICE because there are thousands of peer reviewed studies explaining how our addiction to petroleum for fuel is jeopardizing our future quality of life. Are there similar studies about dangers to an addiction to sunlight and wind?

If I've been misinformed please post your sources.
nwdriver.

May I please thank you for serving.

I am fully aware al Qaeda was-is funded by oil.

I am note smart enough to give an opinion on petroleum and terrorist.

Maybe you are 'bout 25-30 years younger than me. Not sure.

As an ol' geezer we are set in our ways. My wife's gasser RAV4 and my TDi suit me. Wife fills up about 17 times a year.

My 2.5 year old, 6,000 mile Golf has NOT seen more than 15 fuel tickets total.

Most likely (more like 99% sure) this is my last car on this earth.. ~~ But if I did live to a hundred, and could fill my battery in (say) 5 minuets, with RANGE at least(say 500 miles) and a new car cost in my budget, maybe I could get on board, with a new EV.

Anyway, again, may I please thank you for serving.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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Please thank me by joining my modest boycott on oil for fuel. We all have to make 'sacrifices' ;)
hmmmmmmm.

... 1st) I did not serve. My "time" was VN SAM didn't want me - Diabetes.

... 2nd) Never knew anything but gas cars. BTW, Grew up working in my Pop's TEXACO SERVICE STATION 1950s.
___________

We may have more in common (by unintended consequences) than some might think.

By happenstance the last ('bout) 6 years, I have driven less than 11,000 miles. Add to that we upgraded our home's heat, air & insulation at a price that was 135% of the cost when I bought it.

I drive slower in the "right lane" as some folks whip by.

Ol' retired geezers (with a limited budget) just do not burn as much fuel.
 
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tadawson

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Why?

I hate ICE because I was in Iraq for 8 months ensuring our supply of oil wasn't disrupted. Was there a war to secure our supply of sunlight and wind that I missed?

I hate ICE because I was part of Operation Enduring Freedom fighting Al Qaeda who was ~100% funded by oil sales. Does the sale of sunlight and wind also somehow fund terrorism in a way I'm unaware?

I hate ICE because there are thousands of peer reviewed studies explaining how our addiction to petroleum for fuel is jeopardizing our future quality of life. Are there similar studies about dangers to an addiction to sunlight and wind?

If I've been misinformed please post your sources.
Are you also mad at the previous US administration, for doing everything they could to avoid utilizing domestic petrroleum resources, this aggravating the problems of which you speak? That upsets me more than anything else, personally . . .
 

bhtooefr

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Given nwdiver's third response, using domestic instead of foreign petroleum sources would not have helped in that case.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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Are you also mad at the previous US administration, for doing everything they could to avoid utilizing domestic petroleum resources, this aggravating the problems of which you speak? That upsets me more than anything else, personally . . .
Nations "subsidize" what they care to.. Mother German pores $$$$ into VW. Do they not?

....ssooooo if we heavily "subsidized" all our petro sources -- would we need middle east black gold. Me thinks not.
 

turbobrick240

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Nations "subsidize" what they care to.. Mother German pores $$$$ into VW. Do they not?

....ssooooo if we heavily "subsidized" all our petro sources -- would we need middle east black gold. Me thinks not.
If you think our tax dollars aren't already used to heavily subsidize the fossil fuel industry, you're mistaken.
 

nwdiver

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Are you also mad at the previous US administration, for doing everything they could to avoid utilizing domestic petrroleum resources, this aggravating the problems of which you speak? That upsets me more than anything else, personally . . .
No... it's a global market. More of what we're addicted to is not the solution to our addiction.
 

tadawson

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With domestic oil, there is *ZERO* mandate that it be on the global market . . . and the addiction is "energy", not petroleum. Show me a kid that plays with anything that doesn't gobble power any more . . .
 

nwdiver

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With domestic oil, there is *ZERO* mandate that it be on the global market . . . and the addiction is "energy", not petroleum. Show me a kid that plays with anything that doesn't gobble power any more . . .
There actually is a mandate that it be on the global market... it's called the law. Even when it was illegal to export oil you could still export distillates. So even if we produced 200% of our oil needs unless we could single handedly supply the world a disruption in Iraq will cause prices here to spike.

There are orders of magnitude more negative consequences when the source of energy is oil vs when it's sunlight and wind. And with EVs you also reduce the amount of energy used by ~70%.
 
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Oilerlord

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No... it's a global market. More of what we're addicted to is not the solution to our addiction.
Aren't the rest of us so fortunate that your 5000 pound environmental ego machine only required the use of materials from renewable, responsibly & ethically farmed bamboo to produce.

Step #1 to the "solution":

Stop advocating the proliferation of automobiles (of any kind), and instead revisit the traditional environmental values of Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. Mother Nature will thank you.
 

bhtooefr

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The heaviest Model S, a P100D (100 kWh battery, performance, dual motor) is 4941 lbs. However, a 2012 didn't have dual-motor even available, and the heaviest battery was lighter, so the heaviest possible model in 2012 would be the P85+ at 4731 lbs. It could be a base-model 60, at as light as 4323 lbs.
 

nwdiver

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Aren't the rest of us so fortunate that your 5000 pound environmental ego machine only required the use of materials from renewable, responsibly & ethically farmed bamboo to produce.
Explain how a 5k pound car that gets ~90mpge is worse than a 2k pound car that gets 40mpg. The objective is eliminating our dependence on fossil fuels.

Yeah... it takes more resources to manufacture but the increase in efficiency makes up for that after ~80k miles with typical average grid efficiency. If the source of energy is wind or solar this is far less.
 
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2015vwgolfdiesel

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Explain how a 5k pound car that gets ~90mpge is worse than a 2k pound car that gets 40mpg. The objective is eliminating our dependence on petroleum for fuel.


.... respectfully

..... some persons in oil producing may have umbrage on your objective

..... what is ---- mpge? --- how do you get-produce one (it) and what does it cost?

... apples and oranges are killing me
 

RabbitGTI

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Ya know, I rather enjoy fossil fuels, heel and toe shifting and the glorious sound an ICE engine makes when it's being DRIVEN properly. I'm buying a Golf R. I'm doing an APR stage 2 tune and installing a race Haldex controller. Think street legal rally car. I don't really GAF what the fuel mileage is. Do I need it? No. Do I want it? Yes, in the worst way, always have. I also don't GAF what anyone thinks of that because I've done my part for the "Earth" driving diesels and fuel efficient cars for decades while the sea of SUVs increased. I also drive my cars forever. The only reason I bought the 07 and 08 Jettas is safety for wife and daughters.
 

bhtooefr

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MPGe is miles per 33.7 kWh of electricity, which is the energy content of one gallon of gasoline.

That's purely energy equivalency, though, from either plug to wheels or pump to wheels - it doesn't consider distribution losses, generation emissions, and feedstock extraction/refining emissions for electricity, or combustion and feedstock extraction/refining emissions for gasoline. Part of this is simply because the range of possible emissions for electricity varies incredibly widely - a 100% solar or wind-powered EV has basically zero usage emissions, whereas a coal-powered EV can have rather high usage emissions. And, gasoline depends greatly on the specific regional blend, too.
 

nwdiver

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.... respectfully

..... some persons in oil producing may have umbrage on your objective

..... what is ---- mpge? --- how do you get-produce one (it) and what does it cost?

... apples and oranges are killing me
Whose rights should supersede whose? Roughnecks can find a new occupation a lot easier than the rest of society can fix the harm done by our addiction to fossil fuels.

mpge is miles per gallon equivalent. It's not apples-oranges it's apples-apples. Just a different unit of energy. 1lb=2.2kg; 33.7kWh in a gallon of gasoline.

Ya know, I rather enjoy fossil fuels,
And I rather enjoy clear skies, a livable climate, fuel that doesn't fund terrorism, sea levels roughly where they've been for centuries etc, etc... sadly we can't have both....
 
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wxman

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@nwdiver - all of your stated goals could also be accomplished with diesel ICEVs on renewable diesel fuels.
 

bhtooefr

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Depends on how carbon-intensive the manufacture of the renewable diesel fuels is - while it's not as bad as ethanol, there is a fair amount of fossil input AFAIK.
 

wxman

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According to California's LCFS analysis, a blend of 60% RD100 from pyrolysis, 10% from bio-oil, and 30% from municipal solid waste (MSW) has a carbon intensity of 19.4 g CO2e/MJ.

The California marginal electricity mix of natural gas and renewable energy sources has a effective CI of 38.78 g CO2e/MJ (that's taking the approximately 3 times better "mileage" of EV into account).
 

nwdiver

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@nwdiver - all of your stated goals could also be accomplished with diesel ICEVs on renewable diesel fuels.
Unfortunately that not true. We can't scale renewable fuels to the level we need. We can scale wind and solar easily. AND EVs make scaling even easier with demand response.

The California marginal electricity mix of natural gas and renewable energy sources has a effective CI of 38.78 g CO2e/MJ (that's taking the approximately 3 times better "mileage" of EV into account).
No one is saying that's the end goal. We're still adding solar and wind.
 
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