Engine will not start after rebuild--HELP!

I read through another recent thread similar to my problem, but the fix didn't seem to address my woes, so here goes:

After replacing the head on my '01 Jetta TDI it will not start despite all appearing to be in order.

Valve timing was set meticulously using tools--rechecked today--all ok.

All air purged from filter/IP/lines--good fuel from the lines at the injector nuts.

Compression tests ok (390-450 is this low?)

Glow plugs test ok. All brand new. Voltage at the harness.

Anti-shudder valve is open--not stuck. No apparent air restriction.

All injectors were stored in parts cleaner during head rebuild (the difference between my dilemma and the other post I mentioned--his injectors had been left out for two months and had gunked up)

Starter turns over at 150 rpm (is this adequate?) when jumped--ran the battery down trying to start. This is an automatic so I can't roll it.

At this point I'm at a loss. The only thing I can guess is that the injectors are somehow clogged. Not much in the way of smoke coming out the tailpipe when attempting starts--just a whiff.

Sorry about the long post, but I thought I'd provide all the details to this point. Any and all help is greatly appreciated!!

How about Injector #3 connection? Is it connected and to the correct plug. I think there are 2 plugs directly below Injector #3 that look the same. I am not sure if they can be mixed up but it's worth a look.

Cranking RPM is supposed to be 250. Seems strange that you can't get that even with a boost.

Try unplugging the CTS to get max glow duration. This will throw a CEL but that can be cleared later.

Are you sure about the cam and crank timing? I would check to make sure that you are not running retarted valve timing.

One last longshot, are you sure that your cam had both cyl #1 lobes pointing upwards. It is possible that the cam could be 180 degrees off. Just a shot in the dark not very likely but you never know.

#3 injector sensor is connected correctly.

Temp sensor disconnected for max glow duration

Cam lobes were definitely up (wouldn't I have struck the valves to the pistons if it were 180 out? No unusual racket when cranking)

I suspected starter speed may be low but it SOUNDS just like it did before all the work, for what that's worth. I guess a starter will be cheaper than new injectors anyway. Thanks for the input.

Double check your ground connection at the transmission, clean it up real nice. Also double check the positive cable that goes to the starter, they can be kind of picky.

I think you are really close.

How about manually advancing the IP timing by loosening the bolts and rotating the pump. There is a thread on how to do this.

How about the battery terminals, battery top fuse connectors and grounds. Are they all clean and tight? (like merker said)

The crank makes 2 revolutions for every one cam revolution. It is possible to turn the motor with the cam being out by 180 degrees and have no contact. Piston moves up twice for every cam rev. But like I said, a shot in the dark.

Oh and another thing I thought of. When I put a new head on my car and was messing around with it, it took forever to get running. Once it was running I let it idle for a bit and went to restart, started fine, tried it again and it won't fire up.

The problem, I still had the stock stretch injection pump bolts in the injection pump pulley. So when I went to crank it,the became loose and threw my timing way off. Also I would check to see if you didn't lock the injection pump in the sucker hole.

Also what cam lock tool did you use? If you use the VW style that you didn't have to take the valve cover off its pretty tough to screw up the cam to crank timing.

And hell just last night I helped a guy with a timing belt job and we had the injection pump 180 off

you did a TB job and had the pump 180 off? HOW? That would NEVER happen with the correct tools.

Now. the no start. You could have a fail amount of air in the inj system. You need to get a vaccum on the return from the inj pump for at least 20 min. then as you try to start crack and inj line until you get fuel, then another if you need. It'll start. You need to get FULLY charged battery in there and eave it on the charger while doing this though.

ALSO you might have washed down the cyl with coolant when you pulled the head. a bit of oil dribbled into the GP holes and waiting an hour often is all it needs to start. You have to do this with cars thast sit a long time.

When I was doing my mods, I had the car torn down for a month probably. I couldn't get mine to start either. The IP lost prime and so I had to use a Mity vac and prime it. After I did that it started right up.

Don't know if that is your problem but another thing to check.

I'm going with Jason's assessment (wow what's new). If all else is correct, dribble a little oil down the GP hole and wait an hour. It will start! I know, after spending hours and hours on my IDI Volvo having no luck at all I decided to call Jason. He suggested the oil down the glow plug hole. After an hour (note it was about 35 degrees out NOT what it is today) it started perfectly and never sounded better.

Note it will blow smoke when it starts, LOTS of smoke

jasonTDI said:

you did a TB job and had the pump 180 off? HOW? That would NEVER happen with the correct tools.

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I know it seems implauseable but in theory this could be possible. The cam lock down fits in the slot on the back of the cam. Would the cam tool fit if the cam was rotated 180 degrees and then the tool is installed? If the valve cover is not removed this becomes more easier to do.

I saw something like this many years ago with a gas engine and I was completely amazed.

I do realize that many of us are doing our own timing belts and I have also noted a rash of buggered up engines as a result of people not doing this procedure correctly.

Would fuel exiting the return line fitting indicate the IP is primed completely or could air still be trapped inside? Don't have a mityvac, just a shopvac, and it was enough to draw the fuel through the pump to where it just dribbled out of the return line fitting, then when you take it off the fuel recedes back into the fitting. As mentioned, all lines were bled at the injector nuts, and there are no air bubbles in the clear line coming from the filter. A local diesel shop says that even if the injectors are crummy it should still fire, will just run poorly. Does anyone recommend compressed air down the return line to pressurize the fuel tank and send fuel through the IP? A guy on another thread did this with good result.

PB_NB said:

I know it seems implauseable but in theory this could be possible. The cam lock down fits in the slot on the back of the cam. Would the cam tool fit if the cam was rotated 180 degrees and then the tool is installed? If the valve cover is not removed this becomes more easier to do.

I saw something like this many years ago with a gas engine and I was completely amazed.

I do realize that many of us are doing our own timing belts and I have also noted a rash of buggered up engines as a result of people not doing this procedure correctly.

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The tool will fit but to get the pump out 180 youd have to have the timing mark on the crank out as well. That's not procedure.

Well, it looks like I'm back to square one--I pulled the valve cover to recheck the timing and found all 4 exhaust valve lifters either cracked or in pieces!! Camshaft was gouged too where one of the shattered lifters had dug in--also gouged the lifter bore. New head? Most likely all four of the exhaust valves are now bent (again!) and the head must come off. So much for having everything lined up perfect. Obviously some piston to valve contact occurred but I can't figure out how if all was lined up or at least very close to lined up. This totally sucks.

jasonTDI said:

you did a TB job and had the pump 180 off? HOW? That would NEVER happen with the correct tools.

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Not sure how that happened, but we did have a younger guy start the work (put everything at TDC) so I guess never let a beginning tech try to line up the marks I guess, always do it yourself.

or he forgot to loosen the 3 13mm bolts and cranked on it without counter holding. either way the pin should have been in there.

five7driver said:

Obviously some piston to valve contact occurred but I can't figure out how if all was lined up or at least very close to lined up. This totally sucks.

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That doesn't seem to work too well with TDI's. Kinda like ordering chicken cooked rare.

five, you do have a small bit of flexiblilty to be off in the physical timing between the cam and crank before contact is made.

One question; did you time the crank of the harmonic balancer or the flywheel?

There are marks on both of these however, the harmonic balancers outer rings can slip and become disconnected from the inner circle. Timing off this mark will, in most cases, be incorrect to the actual placement of the crank.

Have a look at these photos:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/uploads/69936/TDI_Dam_2.jpg
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/uploads/69936/TDI_Dam_1.jpg

Sorry to here about this set back.

And always and i repeat always turn the engine over by hand before starting the car after you do a timing belt.

That way if it is mistimed you will feel the pistons touch the valve and go back and retry. Just praying and cranking it over will mess up alot of stuff

And always and i repeat always turn the engine over by hand before starting the car after you do a timing belt.

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Couldn't agree more.

Using a 19mm 12pt 1/2" ratchet with a 4" extension, rotate clockwise approx 720 degree or till the crankshaft sprocket "bump" is back at 8 O'Clock, it will go past this once and then realign on the second time.

When you're close to that bump at 8 O'Clock REMOVE THE RATCHET. You don't want to leave that on there and then start it up minutes later!!!

Then proceed up to the cam, while holding the cam lock plate. Rotate with the counterhold tool till the cam lock plate slides in easily. You're method may vary here but I take my rathcet and proceed to wiggle the crank sprocket back and forth to feel for the center of the lash from the TB system ( again, TAKE THE RATCHET OFF WHEN YOU'RE DONE ). The crank should be at exactly TDI as placed by the cam lock plate and centering of the timing belt assembly; the truth will be when you go over to the flywheel plug and inspect the TDC mark. It should be exactly on, if it's a slight bit off, then either you didn't wiggle the crank into center lash or the cam wasn't indexed exactly at install time or one of several other reasons. I personally would crack the cam pulley back off and lock everything back down and reset it all. If the cam is locked and the TDC mark on the flywheel does match up perfect then you should be able to just about insert that IP pin right into place with a little twisting. That's how I do it, YMMV but that's the strictest way I've managed to find to determing accuracy of all the marks. Don't tighten the cam pulley down till the belt is tensioned and the tensioner is tightened down and you are sure the crank hasn't moved a hair off TDC as visible from the flywheel marking.

I hope that when the head was installed, the cam and crank were both as close to TDC as possible, that's a possibility to think about too.

Pull the head and let a machine shop look at it. At the very least, you'll need a valve job, new cam, new followers ... more new head bolts.

Check out the top of your pistons and post pictures here for further advice. Bottom might be OK depending on how hard the pistons hit.

If the head looks real bad, do a search for posts about heads made by oilhammer. He know a place that fixes heads that others won't touch.

I know this isn't you problem now but just for the sake of answering your question .... in my case I did have fuel come out of injector #3 but it wasn't very much. I ended up backing the nut almost all the way off expecting more fuel to come out when I cranked but it didn't. That is when I called Jeff (RC) and he told me to prime the IP. I pulled a gentle vacuum on the return line until it drew fuel all the way back to the filter ... then it fired right up. You need to get a Mitty Vac ... lots of uses on a TDI.

Just something to keep in your back pocket should you run into something similar when you get it all back together and try again.

I know you are bummed out about now but just take things slow ... you'll get it back up and people here will help.

five7driver said:

Would fuel exiting the return line fitting indicate the IP is primed completely or could air still be trapped inside? Don't have a mityvac, just a shopvac, and it was enough to draw the fuel through the pump to where it just dribbled out of the return line fitting, then when you take it off the fuel recedes back into the fitting. As mentioned, all lines were bled at the injector nuts, and there are no air bubbles in the clear line coming from the filter. A local diesel shop says that even if the injectors are crummy it should still fire, will just run poorly. Does anyone recommend compressed air down the return line to pressurize the fuel tank and send fuel through the IP? A guy on another thread did this with good result.

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Well, if I'm going to start over from scratch I'd really like to know WHAT HAPPENED!? No sense in putting $500 in parts back into this thing and doing it all over again. I know, I know--take it to a VW or diesel professional, but that would satisfy my wife just a little too much......

Any help???

To get the best advice, I think we all need to know where you are starting from. Why was the head off in the first place? Is it a 5 spd or Auto?

You have to be real anal or you'll jack something up. I was anal and still had complications first time I did it.

Did you start with the find TB change .pdf here on the site? Were the proper tools used to lock the cam, fuel pump, and crank?

Getting the cam at the proper location and locked and the crank at the proper location and locked are the key. You know the crank is in the right position by looking at the mark on the flywheel through the inspection hole for a 5 spd (not real familiar with a auto but it is covered in the .pdf).

The crank or the cam moved on you is what happened.

When you think you have it right .... double check the crank is TDC, cam is TDC, fuel pump is locked in the proper spot. Then remove all the locking tools and turn the engine by hand. You don't want to use the cam sprocket to do this as it hasn't seated good yet, you want to use a breaker bar and turn the crank. You'll have less chance of messing up that way, I learned it the hard way.

Get your parts (and the right tools if you don't have them), the .pdf, the torque values page etc., allow yourself plenty of time and do it again.

Does someone there have VAG-COM? You'll need that to set your timing (by bumping the fuel pump until your "in the middle" or towards the upper line for advanced timing ... better power etc.)

You can do it.

five7driver said:

.... but that would satisfy my wife just a little too much......

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LOL, yea, I remember mine being like that too! I used it as an opportunity to sneak a few more mods in claiming they were necessary

ahhhh..the mechanics thinks this is bad mod trick! I hear that one all the time.

hutchman said:

At the very least, you'll need a valve job, new cam, new followers ... more new head bolts.

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A cylinder head gasket would be nice... don't leave home without it...

Good luck to the O.P. !!!!

Yuri.

Thanks again for all the good info. To address a few of the questions posted:

It's an automatic. I bought it a year ago with 135k miles on it--the previous owner said he had the timing belt replaced at he "thought" around 85k. Waited to do it myself--big mistake. Belt broke at 70mph on highway. 8 bent valves, etc, etc. Had head professionally machined and re-done. New everything. Did the TB, water pump etc.

When I got the head back the #1 cam lobe was down (ie not TDC for #1 cyl on compression stroke) So I turned it over by hand and had both lobes up for the line-up. I used the window on the trans to set TDC--by the way, this mark is very hard to determine what is EXACTLY TDC, as I hear referred to often--its a bump on the flywheel lining up with the bottom of a hole--parallax can throw it off by a mm or two depending on the angle of view (?). When I turned it over by hand after tightening everything down it turned about 180 degrees then met some resistance which I took to be either TB slack or IP resistance (not so?). I pulled through the resistance without HUGE force, but it can be a lot with a 1/4 inch ratchet with a 14 inch long handle. So I guess that was where I erred--should there have been any resistance at all when pulling it through by hand?

There was a little bit of "clatter" the first few cranks, which I took to be normal, considering most of the oil was in the pan (by the way, I oiled everything up really well by hand before putting on the valve cover), but after a while that went away--again, I assumed that the oil was circulating and had quieted the problem--what had probably happened at that point is that the damage was done, the exhaust valves were jammed up into the lifters and no more piston contact was occurring.

What is striking to me is that only the exhaust valves appear to be damaged--dunno yet- head not off yet.

Did you indeed have the cam locking tool in place or just have the cam lobes "up"?? Also when you have the head off this time, rotate the engine thru a couple of turns while watching at the flywheel inspection hole, I've seen marks/castings some have mistaken for the true TDC alignment mark. After its all back together again, you verify all clear by a couple of easy rotations w/o ANY resistance. You can remove the GPs for easier rotating to take the compression cycles out for a better "feel". Many condolences on the misfortune.

Sounds like you may have only been off a little bit. Were the proper TB tools used? (lock for the cam, lock for the crank and pin to lock the fuel pump).

You may have mis read the TDC on the flywheel. Very common thing to do. There is also a mark on the serpentine belt sprocket area you can use to kind of get a clue for when the "real" TDC mark is about to appear in the window. I can't remeber its O'clock postion off the top of my head but you might be able to search some TB threads for it.

The comment made above about taking the glow plugs out for when you do the hand turn of the engine is a good idea. That way the compression cycles won't be confused for contact.

I'm in Lynchburg but am currently out of the country on another all expense paid vacation to an exotic place complements of the US Army.

I should be home mid March and might be able to lend a hand if you don't have it figured out by then.

Thanks for the offer, Hutchman, I may be taking you up on that. Keep your head down and stay safe over there.

I have the cam locking tool but used a suitable sized allen wrench for the IP lock. No crank lock--didn't see the need for it (mistake?) I verified that the #1 piston was at TDC when the flywheel mark was in the window while the head was off.

If the flywheel mark remains in the proper position, why do you need a crank lock?

Anyway, had to put the tools down and walk away for a few days. Head should come off tomorrow or the next day.