ALH weird serious engine problem

tgray

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No codes that would indicate anything wrong. The engine for sure looses compression. It just spins freely after it dies and will not start right back up. It sounds like an engine with no valves turning over. Let it sit for a few minutes, after the lifters relax, it starts on a couple and then soon all 4 are firing smoothly. My thoughts are too that the issue has to be in the valve train. Either the valves are sticking causing the lifters to pump up or the lifters are sticking. Like was stated earlier, the car could have "kissed" the valves from a bad timing job, slightly bent them and causing them to hang up when the rpms increase. I was hoping not to have to pull the head but it looks like that is next. I will pull the valve cover off again and inspect things better. If I remember right it all looked good from what I saw. The weird part was about a year ago the car took a spell and ran great for a while and then went back to its bad behavior.
 

muzy

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If the ASV closes, it will not let air into intake thus no compression .
Not sure you confirmed this is not happening?
Cheers
I see now oil hammer explored this option.
?
 
Last edited:

UhOh

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muzy, glad someone asked this again: I was going to. It really does have all the feel. I have never disconnected the ASV linkage, so I have no idea on how it would act disconnected: in my mind I'd always thought that I'd just wire it open (there's certainty here).
 

tgray

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The ASV is working fine. The problem seems pretty clear it is in the valve train. The problem is repeatable and consistent only when pumping the throttle. Warming the car up makes the problem barely noticeable but the high end revs don't seem to be acting right. The question seem just how far and deep I have to go to solve it all. As a side note reminder the car does not like to run well at all with the EGR valve hooked up. If the valves are floating it would make sense as the back pressure would mess with the boost and allow the lifters to pump up too high. The next chance I get I will put the computer on the car and check the boost readings again.
 

Nutsnbolts

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I believe that all of the evidence here is pointing to a valve float problem, which would explain the lifters pumping up to their max and holding the valves open for a time after the engine is shut down, resulting in no or little compression. It suggests that the valve springs are not able to keep the lifters against the cam properly at the higher RPM range, and replacement of the springs may be in order.

However, you must take the valve cover off for an inspection here. There is the possibility that the valves have come in contact with the pistons during an extended-open period at TDC from the valves floating, and there will usually be stress cracks on the tops of the lifters to indicate this.

-Rich
 

Tdijarhead

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This might be a case where someone had a timing belt event. Either a botched timing belt job or it actually broke, and then a new belt was slapped on and the car sold. If that did happen that will result in a dropped value in the near future. Usually in about 10 k miles or less.
 

runonbeer

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Have you actually done a compression test?

To me this sounds like a stuck vane(s) in the transfer section of injection pump. I have solved that problem several times with a looped diesel purge treatment.
 

tgray

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There is no way I know how to do a compression test to experience the temporary no start condition. By the time I would install the gauge the valves would settle back down and be fine again. Also, when starting a normal engine, the sound of the compression stroke is evident. This car cranking sounds like someone pulled the head off (or all the injectors out) and the engine is turning out a smooth whirring sound. If I keep cranking the engine finally starts the compression sound on one, then two and by then it will start and run again. Once the car is back functioning normal the engine starts with the normal half turn fire and idles very smoothly. If I always had low compression then the car would start hard or shake/ smoke. Also, when the problem occurs there is a weird whooshing type sound in the intake pipes - like the turbo is being stressed on an off with every compression stroke. Then, as the engine sometimes struggles to keep going, the exhaust smoke turns white and a lot of it, telling me it is dumping raw fuel into the exhaust. The more I talk and listen to the comments I think I need to take the head off just to check all the valves out and by then, install new lifters and cam and be done. I really wonder if the car had a timing belt slip a few cogs, the valves were damaged but not bad enough to destroy the head, and the owner just put a new belt on and called it good.
 

Tdijarhead

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If that proves to be the case, you will need a complete head including valves. Not just a cam and lifters.
 

flee

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If that proves to be the case, you will need a complete head including valves. Not just a cam and lifters.
Or just replace any valve and lifter that made contact, inspect the lifter bores, lap the seats and use the one you have.
 

tgray

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Sounds like the best plan, and thanks for all your input. I will have to return to this project in a month or so and pull the head after some other stuff gets done. Maybe I will just rebuild the whole engine while I am into it. I totally rebuilt a blown out and abused low mile car I am driving now and thought I had way too much into it back a few years but now I am smiling, about 100,000 trouble free miles later, and glad I did it right.
 

tgray

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Finally back to working on this project. I pulled the head and all the valves and really found nothing obvious wrong. The head actually looks pretty good for 300,000. The lifters were only slightly worn on the part that touches the top of the valve stem. The cam is only slightly worn but looks pretty good. The cylinder walls look real good with no score marks and the ridge at the top is hardly much at all. There is no sign on any piston of a valve hitting and the valves all spin smooth and straight in the guides (no spider cracks in the lifters either).
The only thing I could find was a carbon ridge build up on the intake valve. Perhaps this would deflect the valve long enough to build up the lifter.
Has anyone seen a lifter go bad to cause this? I have only seen lifters fail to pump up but that would only cause a rattle sound.
Running the engine with a few hard throttle bursts would set the problem in motion and the engine would chug and die out. A quick attempt to restart would just have a free wheeling spin when there is no compression. Wait a few minutes and all is back to normal.
I have ordered a new cam and lifters and see what that does.
My only other thought was the rings sticking but with no scores on the walls and the pistons moving back and forth like they should in the bores it seems they would be fine. And it would have to be all or most of the rings sticking at the same time.
 

tgray

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I have ways of cleaning the head myself, the valve guides seem to be within spec on a quick look but I have to get the dial indicator out to prove it. I am not sure what lapping will do for valves that have beautiful shinny surfaces mating with shiny seats going back into the same holes. Lapping new valves into old seats can help make sure they are sealed properly. If starting compression was low it would not have started so well in the cold and run so smoothly.
 

AndyBees

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I have a 2001 ALH TDI with about 300,000 miles on it. It seemed to be running fine starting fine until I took it out on the road and found it had no power. I found the turbo vanes were stuck so I repaired that issue. Then the car would not rev past 3,000 sputtering and missing and smoking clouds of white smoke.
I tried different MAF sensors but the same result. When I unhooked the EGR vacuum the revs and power came back but when it is throttled to about 3,000 and back repeatedly and quickly, the engine will suddenly start making weird howling sputtering sounds in the intake like the turbo is doing something strange and the engine will start chugging and missing very bad. Sometimes the miss is so bad the engine will die if I let the throttle off. The engine puts out clouds of white smoke. When I go to restart the engine it sounds like the valves are all open with no compression (if the ASV is closed, a vacuum is created when cranking the engine, thus like no compression). Within about 10 seconds the engine will always start and idle smooth again with no problems. I can repeat this issue over and over but does seem to get better when it is warm.
Has anyone experience such a problem? My one guess it sounds like the valves are sticking and messing with the turbo flows. But I am stumped, if the valves were sticking why it would not act up under full throttle or idle. It only acts up when I keep punching the throttle back and forth. The other thought was it was the injection pump going out.
The other weird part is I can't seem to find a way to hook up the EGR. If I do connect the vacuum tube it doesn't like to rev past 3,000 again and has no power.
Just for the record, I never really had this car on the road but bought it with some body damage so I don't know much about its history other than it was being driven before the accident.
Any ideas to verify what is wrong before I tear the engine down and find nothing wrong but a bad injection pump?

I admit, I have not read every response to this Thread starter post. So, if I've missed something, my apologies.

I believe you were having a combo of problems. 3000 RPMs is about Limp Mode for an under boost from the Turbo. Just curious if there were any DTCs. Thus, a cleaned Turbo (Vanes, etc.) doesn't necessarily mean that those Vanes aren't scrubbing the back plate in the housing...seen this a number of times.

Loads of white smoke and hard starting is pretty good indication that the ASV on the EGR is sticking shut. Or there is a tremendous overloading of fuel while cranking the engine (which I doubt).

Now that you have the head off, you can see there were no valves sticking causing the Turbo to not function properly. Remember, the pistons are chasing the Exhaust Valves shut on the exhaust cycle. In other words, about the time the exhaust valve closes, bam, the piston is at TDC. So, a sticky valve would have got smashed by a piston.

My 2000 Jetta is pushing 370k miles. I'd say the lifters, valve stems, cam, etc., are all worn about like yours. However, it starts and runs quite well.

So, what are the DTCs? There have to be codes!
 

JB05

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In post #27 the OP did change the oil pump. Was it new or used?
 

tgray

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Yes the ASV is working fine and even disconnected quite a few times with my hand feeling the lever as the engine is chugging away on 2 or 3 cylinders. with a few minutes of idle the car started kicking back in the other dropped cylinders and ran smooth again.
Yes the oil pump has been replaced with a brand new one - I can't remember the brand it has been so long but the problem did not change at all. I even took actual gauge pressure when the engine sputtered out and found reasonable. No codes but perhaps a glow plug fault once in a while from a bad harness. And yes I did find the turbo control was sticking so that explains the white smoke but the smoke issue and the stalling did not happen at the same time. The car would rev up and hold the rpms fine (with no smoke when the turbo was working) until I started punching the throttle up and down. Then it would start its spitting and chugging. When the car was revved up and down real quick to cause the problem I could hear the chugging and sputtering back through the intake. It seemed the valves were opening just enough to loose compression when idling and starting. I never herd anything like a valve hitting a piston and now with the head off I don't see any evidence of that at all.
The strangest part to me was the car took a spell and started running right for while and everything went back to its main problem. As far as any history of the car goes I don't know a lot other than I got it after a front end collision. It pushed the front in and cracked the oil filter tower so I had to replace that. Maybe something knocked loose plugging up some oil passage? It all looked clean and fine when I replaced the pump.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Ah, sorry. Typed that from home on my phone, didn't want to forget to respond in the morning and didn't catch that it was replaced. :(
 

tgray

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OK, head is back on all cleaned up and checked out with new seals and gaskets, bolts and new cam and lifters. I was impressed at how good it all looked inside for about 300,000 miles. The car now starts right off, runs smooth and I am not able to make it die by running it up and down with the throttle like before. It had to be the lifters pumping up just enough to take down the compression. Everything else is exactly the same but the lifters and the cam. I haven't even checked the timing yet. Thanks again for all your help. Looking back I could have just swapped the lifters and cam but I had visions of bent valves waiting to break off on a cold rainy day.
 

UhOh

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Epic thread! You really hung in there. And from the start you'd pretty much called what the problem was (though it's still amazing how it showed itself).

You'd mentioned that you'd seen some carbon build-up on the intake (stems)? Don't suppose you have pictures?
 

tgray

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Sorry, no pictures. I thought there were plenty of TDI engine pictures on the forum as I really found nothing that unusual worth seeing. I also wanted to add that after I got the engine running right like it should with the valve lifter and cam change I discovered the EGR still didn't like to be connected up to the control valve. (This was some of my original smoke/power issue but a separate issue from the valve float problem.) The reason for this was I had put in an adapter for the vent tube from the egr and turbo control valves and it had a plug in the line. This adapter was because I used a gas version air cleaner box. When this plugged condition happens the turbo is pulled too low with full vacuum and the egr is pulled to wide open. Not a good thing for combustion air and makes a lot of smoke and would hardly run right at all. It acted like the egr control valve was stuck wide open and broken as the vacuum back feeds from the turbo control valve and both are taken down. Some may wonder why I didn't notice this before. Well, the car sat for so long, the turbo actuator stuck on full boost so the control valve couldn't do anything to the turbo and I didn't really run it under a load then to throw any high boost codes. With the turbo on full boost and the egr valve on wide open all the time the engine could not get enough fresh air in and then when the valves start floating open it all went down hill. Anyway, one project figured out and now on to finishing my TDI swap into a GLI Jetta VR6.
 

tgray

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You'd mentioned that you'd seen some carbon build-up on the intake (stems)?
The valve carbon build up was only around the intake valve sealing area. The stems looked very good and clean. So I really could not see a good reason for valve float other than the little ridge around the sealing area on the valve. For whatever reason the car did run much better when warmed up for a long time.
The problem would go from being horrible with the engine stalling out to almost disappearing sometimes when very warm.
 
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