Can a Mark & Pray TB job be adjusted or ....?

I have a 98 NB TDI w/ 122,xxx miles and prior to my purchase the timing belt had been replaced. Just not sure how many miles ago but from the looks of the belt it is practically new. I am not against getting a whole new TB / WP kit installed but not too happy about doing it if it is not really necessary.

I had a local TDI trusted mechanic look over my car and he pointed out the belt was a mark & pray job. So my question is whether if my parts are new but the job was done not to spec rather than take a chance as is, can what I have there be inspected and properly adjusted or am I taking chances more than I should. ( The car did not come with records as PO said they were packed away and not able to find them. ) He assured me the job was done fairly recently......and in his favor if possible is that he and his wife both drive TDI's so I can only hope he is telling the truth about the work....

if you don't know when it was done then replace it and the waterpump

Not having a clue what was replaced, bite the bullet and buy a complete quality kit from one of our trusted vendors and have the parts installed by a trusted mechanic.

When you have a timing failure, it is almost never caused by the T/B failing. What usually causes a timing failure is one of those parts that you don't know was changed or not failing.

I told my pal that he should change the T/B on his to slow (2.0) gasser because he was past due. He had a shop change his T/B but they didn't change the tensioner. At about 130K miles, the tensioner let go causing valve to piston collisions requiring a rebuilt head to fix. Except for getting chewed up some, the T/B look to be brand new.

The TB looks new . Can the other parts be checked if they were changed & done right? Or all the parts cannot be checked.

Agree with the above responses.
If something lets go in the timing belt path.... then, to get the car functional again, you have the cost of a complete timing belt job -plus- (typically at least...) the cost of a rebuilt cylinder head and the labor to remove & install it. Typically, that more than doubles the cost of a timing belt job.

That it was "done recently"... sounds comforting, but isn't really the main point of focus. It's much more important to know that it was done by someone who knows what they are doing, and that the full list of components was replaced (and the list is longer than you might imagine, including some bolts that are one time use), and that the parts were sourced from a reputable vendor. And it is sooo important that the person who did the work... knows their stuff. Unfortunately, even taking to a VW dealer shop doesn't always guarantee that.

Sometimes I see people make posts, indicating they are looking at such and such used TDI for purchase, and "The timing belt was just done, so that's all set"... but there are no records. Unfortunately, to me, that's treated as a red flag that the car should probably have a complete proper TB job asap.

I may get taken to the wood shed for this part, but... personally, I'm not so sensitive to seeing the "mark & pray" evidence paint marks. If the records exist that all necessary pieces were replaced with good quality ones, and that the proper procedure was used, I'm OK with it. (Yes, I acknowledge the proper procedure doesn't involve making paint marks...) And maybe the marks exist from a TB job long ago, but the most recent TB was done properly. Again, it's all about verifiable records. I'm a backyard mechanic, own and use the proper tools including vagcom (computer interface, needed to look at the timing while the engine is running). But wayy back when, while doing the first TB job [again, used all correct tools etc], I put white paint marks on my ALH as a reality check. So... my car now has the marks of the devil...

I guess I didn't accomplish much with this reply, other than to re-state what was already responded, just with more words. Another county heard from...

Wish you all the best.

In the absence of proper documentation on a high mileage car (past the documented interval) it is always a good idea to assume that service work hasn't been done and arrange for it to be attended to then at least you have reasonable peace of mind until next time.

With timing belts condition is not necessarily an indication (although VW used to use this until they issued an age limit in addition to mileage limit)

As regard other components associated with a timing belt change VW recommend a new tensioner with every second belt and nothing for the water pump (replace on failure)

Many dealers and independent shops recommend that tensioner and pump be replaced at the same time the belt as the there is little additional labour involved doing them all together.

I personally would not entrust a timing belt job to "Mark and Pray", the proper tools for the job cost relatively little and not having or using them is not a good sign of the competence of those doing the work

These engines are an interference fit so getting the timing wrong will likely cause mechanical damage not just failure to run

Blanco98Beetle said:

The TB looks new . Can the other parts be checked if they were changed & done right? Or all the parts cannot be checked.

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Doesn't really mean much. I suppose you could remove the T/B and check the tensioner, roller and W/P. However, if they used M&P, there is a VG chance they took other shortcuts that could cause you catastrophic failure later.

Mark and Pray in itself will not cause damage later down the line, if parts are not knocking together immediately and the engine runs ok they've got away with it.

However as Ol'rattler says it may tell you something about the tech doing the work, what other shortcuts are being taken be it not changing parts,using poor quality parts or using incorrect techniques. VW don't design procedures to make life hard for mechanics and similarly they don't specify fastener replacement (a much argued topic on VW Groups) for fun.

If the end user wants to cut corners to get a cheap price and knows what is being done and understands the risks that's one thing but dealers and techs cutting corners to pocket a few extra dollars is another

OK ! I got through to the PO I bought the car from, and I know the shop who did the Timing belt service and what was done. The guy is a retired attorney ( and acts like one ) and he did maintain the car mechanically but not as much cosmetically as he had a property manager for a condo he owns use the car most of the last few years ....Anyway he had the $$ to keep the car maintained but he is a dickweed also....Job was done by then VW Depot now called German Car Depot in Hollywood , FL

This was a full TB service with TB, tensioners , rollers and water pump . Paid over $1,000. Job may have been a mark and pray but it was done at just over 100,000 miles when they purchased the car from original owner , so about 24,000 miles ago.

The car runs like a sewing machine. smooth and no noises...The one thing I have concern with is the job was done well over 5 years ago. With the car running fine and only most 24,000 miles since the work is done , do I still have to have concerns about the age?

Thanks, AA

edit ...This is from German Car Depot website ..
Timing Belt Replacement: One of the most important VW Service and Audi services that should be preformed on your VW or Audi vehicle is a timing belt inspection or replacement. If the timing belt is neglected and allowed to break, thousands of dollars of damage could occur to your engine. The recommended intervals for timing belt replacement varies between 40k and 80k miles depending upon the year and model of the vehicle. When your vehicle is brought to German Car Depot for an oil change, a scheduled service or any repairs, our technicians check the condition of your timing belt (this is an easy procedure, often overlooked by other mechanics). When it becomes necessary for a timing belt replacement our technicians follow the vehicle manufacturer’s factory recommendations, this includes also replacing the idler roller, tensioner roller, water pump, thermostat and accessory drive belt.

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Says nothing about the TTY (torque to yield) bolts though. As said in your other post time also plays into the equation and you are due. Give yourself some piece of mind, instead of worrying about it or having an issue.

Lightflyer1 said:

Says nothing about the TTY (torque to yield) bolts though. As said in your other post time also plays into the equation and you are due. Give yourself some piece of mind, instead of worrying about it or having an issue.

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Done over 5 years ago?
Time to replace it just based on time.

cascade7997 said:

Done over 5 years ago?
Time to replace it just based on time.

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Gotta agree.

Here in the UK VW issued time intervals of 4 years for the replacement of belts a few years ago where previously there was only a mileage interval.
I was way under the mileage limit in my Handbook and there was no time limit given but had heard of changes as a TSB (technical service bulletin). He told me that the time limit was given as there had been instances of failure that VW had attributed to deterioration of the belt compound through exposure to airborne contaminants and heat.

Blanco98Beetle said:

...The one thing I have concern with is the job was done well over 5 years ago. With the car running fine and only most 24,000 miles since the work is done , do I still have to have concerns about the age?...

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I agree with the previous posters: the timing belt needs to be replaced due to being >5 years old.

Blanco98Beetle said:

...edit ...This is from German Car Depot website ..
Timing Belt Replacement: One of the most important VW Service and Audi services that should be preformed on your VW or Audi vehicle is a timing belt inspection or replacement. If the timing belt is neglected and allowed to break, thousands of dollars of damage could occur to your engine. The recommended intervals for timing belt replacement varies between 40k and 80k miles depending upon the year and model of the vehicle. When your vehicle is brought to German Car Depot for an oil change, a scheduled service or any repairs, our technicians check the condition of your timing belt (this is an easy procedure, often overlooked by other mechanics). When it becomes necessary for a timing belt replacement our technicians follow the vehicle manufacturer’s factory recommendations, this includes also replacing the idler roller, tensioner roller, water pump, thermostat and accessory drive belt.

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Good that they replaced the water pump, tensioner and rollers. If you want to save some money, the water pump is most likely still good and could make it thru the next timing belt change interval.

Try to determine if the large roller was replaced with the one using the larger diameter bearing. If it was and if it spins with no excess noise, then you could re-use that as well.

If the other rollers are not noisy then you can consider re-using those as well.

I'd go ahead and replace the tensioner. There was a recent thread where some tdiclub gurus were saying that the tensioner can be weakened if it is re-tensioned or tensioned incorrectly. This can stress the orientation tab and cause premature failure. I'd replace this for peace of mind.

Lastly, make sure all relevant single-use (aka torque-to-yield or TTY) bolts are replaced when the belt is replaced. The ones on the motor mount are especially critical as their failure can lead to the engine dropping onto the sub-frame

Good luck