ALH longevity at (x) HP output/how much reliable HP/weak points?

midnightoil · Oct 24, 2018

One big thing i'm wondering to this day though is how much reliable HP I should expect out of a ALH TDI. (about the only thing i'm pretty fixed on is I want an ALH for my swap project) Including how heavy of a vehicle might I put into one if weight is a separate load factor than just torque/hp output, and how heavy of towing, where it might run minutes at a time at higher than stock power levels going through the rockies for instance. Vs power levels I might use for spirited acceleration from a stop.

Like as an example i'm aware there are people that use one Jetta to haul another Jetta which is a good 3500lbs, i've heard of some people it sounds like moving more, and they came in Passats weighing a fair bit which could also tow too. Yet i'm curious what the engine might do even in something like a compact pickup rated at more like 5000-6000lbs towing where the suspension and brakes were up to it, especially if boosted from stock power levels because nobody wants to haul with 90hp in the Rockies...

I'm open to any and all opinions. I guess in my mind i'm looking for "1990's style hauling" back before the crazy pickup power wars started and a 205hp V8 with 300lb/ft was considered enough to haul 7000lbs around or more with the right axle ratio even if you were expected to do it at 55mph. (which might be just fine)

I'm curious what relatively stock internals might give for reliable power - from past reading it sounds like a 205-225hp with 350lb/ft ALH TDI is not unreasonable expectations - yet that's right in line of a light early 90's V8 gas engine. I have a Chevy Caprice with 170hp and 255lb-ft and a pickup with 210hp and 300lb-ft. A car I don't have but have wanted for years is a certain year Fleetwood whose LO5 engine had 185hp and 304lb/ft of torque yet with a low axle ratio could be rated to tow 7000lbs.

Call me crazy but I almost want to slap an ALH in there - while having ample room to work on everything. Yet how would it hold up to having my foot on the floor requiring it to put out 170-210hp up mountain grade with a load, basically meant to replace the V8? Assuming EGT's can stay down, maybe intercooler upgrade, water-meth injection okay, etc. I'm asking it to do twice what it did stock and wonder how long it would last.

To be clear, I don't mind the idea of wearing out the engine faster. I'm the type that only uses my right foot when I have to, and spending the usability faster when you need to is a fair exchange - but I wonder if a half million mile engine becomes a 100,000 mile engine when asking twice the power from it more regularily in a heavier car.

Mostly I want to avoid breaking parts - i'm curious at what sustained power outputs if EGT's are controlled I might expect trouble with mostly stock internals. I don't mind adding something that's an easier upgrade while the engine is out of a car, like I assumed ARP head studs were like that (assumed you just unbolt the factory bolts and replace with the studs?), but I wasn't looking to tear into an engine spending thousands of dollars on internal upgrades either. I'm looking for the low hanging fruit of upgrades possibly including things done during a common rebuild (assuming it'd eventually need one) and not extreme racer stuff. I mean i'd probably be ecstatic beyond belief at 260hp (even if that's a figure only on water/meth) yet i've heard of guys running more so help me understand how to reliably run different levels or what the weak points are.

CleverUserName · Oct 24, 2018

I think I read somewhere that 170-180 hp is the upper "Safe" limit for stock internals without headstuds and forged upgraded rods. The ALH is a stout engine, however I don't think it's suitable for towing or this application.

Working in low speed, high load for sustained periods will require an upgraded oil cooler and radiator. The ALH is an older design that doesn't have a water cooled turbo either so you will have difficulty with thermal management unless you can retrofit a custom water cooled turbo setup.

I'd try to get a 2.8 Duramax from a wrecked Colorado/Canyon and use that for your transplant. Or just buy a new or used 2016-2019 truck and get all the features that come with the total package.

midnightoil · Oct 24, 2018

CleverUserName said:
I think I read somewhere that 170-180 hp is the upper "Safe" limit for stock internals without headstuds and forged upgraded rods. The ALH is a stout engine, however I don't think it's suitable for towing or this application.

Working in low speed, high load for sustained periods will require an upgraded oil cooler and radiator. The ALH is an older design that doesn't have a water cooled turbo either so you will have difficulty with thermal management unless you can retrofit a custom water cooled turbo setup.

Well the towing is infrequent... but definate. The way other people seem to use their Jettas at times - namely hauling home ANOTHER Jetta! Or the way many use light duty and compact pickups (as opposed to heavy duty pickups which are often laden) which is nothing in there or behind usually but once in awhile yes.

Most of the miles are deadhead highway miles (i've been driving a Saturn already remember, and yes I tow with that too, i've just wished for more than my 100hp and 2000lb hitch has allowed at times - like already passing up project Jettas to pull a TDI from because I didn't have the capacity to tow another car home) which is why a car is nice to begin with normally - better aero. I'm already seriously considering just getting a Jetta anyways - this is in part an alternate option if I end up having expensive problems in the Jetta, esp after i've invested in hopping up the engine, could I swap it into another vehicle, or should I consider doing so in the first place skipping the Jetta entirely?

There are people using the engine under what seemed similar conditions already realistically - in other 4000lb vehicles (and i'd drop 300lbs going to that engine already), with worse aero than me. Just for fun a 2000ish Jetta is I believe 0.30 coefficient of drag and 21ft frontal area for an effective 6.3sq feet drag area - the worse case Fleetwood (Caprice is better) is 0.35 coefficient of drag and 25.9 square feet for an effective 9sq feet so 43% more drag or load at the same speeds. Do you think a 43% higher constant load would be a killer for the engine? Tow duty would be seemingly little worse than others already subject things to - it's just theyre overusing their Jetta and i'd have more car around it for suspension/braking. Or maybe a minitruck. What had me thinking was that SBC adapter kit meant I could swap the same engine to the car, compact pickup or light duty pickup.

Assuming I still wanted to contemplate this direction since even if it doesn't get swapped here i'm still talking using a Jetta pulling Class 2 euro hitches... would headstuds themself gain much in power handling? If I did headstuds and upgraded con rods what would that buy? Even without i'd be pretty content with 170-180hp even stock - that's what I have already! :^) Is that 170-180 the hot rod/drag hp limits or the using your Jetta like a mini tow vehicle with your foot in it up a mountain grade figure though? If it's the former that would convince me to rebuild the engine and upgrade rods for my use (whether Jetta or swap), but then i'm wondering how much stronger that plus head studs gets me...

algirdas · Oct 24, 2018

ALH 180whp/300ft-lbs
BEW 200whp/325ft-lbs
BHW 230whp/400ft-lbs
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4489465&postcount=14

eddieleephd · Oct 24, 2018

The torque will pull the weight, the chassis will not handle the load. An ALH is a definite fit for a crawler install where you really want the low end torque to gear even lower and let your foot out easily to get over a boulder.
Towing another home after purchase, total 6000-7000lbs and the other Jetta is capable of supporting its own weight, with the right dolly the weight can be acceptable provided the suspension is up to it.
I would figure that in a rear wheel drive crawler it'd likely pull a good size bush out of the ground fairly easily in 2wd.
These are high torque engines and when you increase HP you begin to affect their low end negatively. HP isn't everything and the capability to pull a 3000lbs trailer behind a 6000lbs vehicle at highway speeds is likely to turn it into a constant disaster done too often. I would recommend staying within 7000lbs maximum on the rare occasion. You have a damn truck that can handle that already!
Build something funner and play in the mud in a 2dr 4wd Yota, Or better yet get a VW Syncro Van and have a ball! just don/t expect to tow more than 2500 with it. At least that can be a nice little teardrop camper that can make it over a few boulders behind the van to get to that spectacular location no one else is able to drive to.

midnightoil · Oct 24, 2018

algirdas said:
ALH 180whp/300ft-lbs
BEW 200whp/325ft-lbs
BHW 230whp/400ft-lbs
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4489465&postcount=14

Thanks for that link... though following to it's original thread now i'm curious, can you parts interchange stronger later parts into the earlier ALH engine fine? Is that like an easy thing or a not as easy thing?

I'm definately looking for budget builds and i've settled on ALH-centric (or whatever would be compatible with one once swapped, i'm now trying to read about BHW/ALH hybrids but it's not clear if it will just bolt in place of a previous ALH engine or use ALH electronics or what but if nothing else that's an upgrade path if the ALH works in the first swap) for many reasons - 180whp is honestly enough for me (esp cuz i'm sure thats closer to, what, 205 at the crank?) certainly to get started (whether this goes into a Jetta or an S10) but obviously 230whp would be even nicer. (since the LT1 V8 is 260hp at the crank in the Fleetwoods and 9C1 cop caprices and that's honestly spirited acceleration despite their weight) Including plans to say start at 180hp and at some point rebuild the engine and turn it up a little further.

Even if I could tune for much power over 260hp i'm not interested, i'd rather tune for torque, mileage, and reliability. Yet against grades and wind or for spirited driving you still need some power.

eddieleephd said:
The torque will pull the weight, the chassis will not handle the load. An ALH is a definite fit for a crawler install

Towing another home after purchase, total 6000-7000lbs and the other Jetta is capable of supporting its own weight, with the right dolly the weight can be acceptable provided the suspension is up to it.

These are high torque engines and when you increase HP you begin to affect their low end negatively. HP isn't everything and the capability to pull a 3000lbs trailer behind a 6000lbs vehicle at highway speeds is likely to turn it into a constant disaster done too often.

Oh I know all about torque, it's why I dont mind these old V8 engines in all ways except fuel usage. Even part throttle they scoot around, there just isn't much more action when you push further.

I know from trailering with my Saturn a total of 4200lbs (car+trailer) with 100hp is less than I like once I hit any hills or wind when I have a less than aero load. Effectively worst case doubling that (8400lbs with 200hp) I don't consider intolerable but these are rare conditions mind you... it helps to understand my intended use - lots and lots of highway miles, sometimes towing a pretty light trailer, occasionally pulling home something heavy at 55mph like another car. Yet reserve power is nice - it's NOT fun getting stuck between people zooming around you at rush hour when you've got it floored and wind load is holding you back.

Again - I already plan to treat a future Jetta like this - Class 2 Euro hitches implying 3500-4000lbs, though that's also Euro style towing rarely exceeding 55mph. (that's fine - i'm willing to tow slow when heavy, i'm not a fool)

My big thing is that i've already driven the way I plan to in the future - hundreds of thousands of miles, mostly unladen, but occasional trailerloads picking up useful stuff 1200lbs or less with various levels of aero slickness on a folding trailer (getting from 20-25mpg driving 70mph vs 33mpg unladen in the Saturn). The difference is what "useful stuff" I have already been forced to pass by because I couldn't bring it home - a car that can bring home a 3500lb load occasionally is more useful than one that can only bring home a 1200lb load. The minitruck that can bring home 5000lbs occasionally is more useful than the 3500lb one. The one that, scary as it sounds, might bring home 7000lbs maybe three times in the next five years, is more useful than the one that can move 5000lbs.

Yet the biggest safety issue is brakes and suspension - not power (except reserve power as I mentioned, in un-fun situations) and having MORE VEHICLE to handle that is always going to be better than pushing a lighter vehicle too far. I'm not proposing doing unsafe things - i'm only trying to learning about overstressed engines and reliability. In the worst case if hauling home something an engine dies after 150k it's not the end of the world - since hopefully i'll have hauled home another two Jettas with engines to pull already by then. :^) I'm just trying to not push levels guaranteed to kill it. (yet I see them used in Passats pushing 4000lbs themself and rated to tow another 3500lbs so I don't think i'm on Planet Stupid contemplating this when 'most people' drive faster than me when I tow heavier to begin with)

So even if we were just talking Jettas would people have engine problems holding their foot in it with a 180hp/300ft-lbs tune on a stock internals ALH pulling lets say 3800lbs Euro style no faster than 55mph but either with alot of wind load, or up long long grades sucking up all that power? Or would that be murdering engines?

And does that radically change if I go with head studs and upgraded rods, or do I have to start upgrading absolutely everything shortly afterwards? Like what's the next step after rods and head studs for an ALH, assuming the turbo isn't overheated either?

[486] · Oct 24, 2018

Didn't sift through all of it, but got the gist
alh in a fullsize truck for towing
right?

ditch the stupid tiny turbos and you'll gain reliability because you aren't wasting 50 hp pushing exhaust through a tiny turbine
you'll probably want the pistons with oil channels for better cooling, as the combustion chamber is in the piston after all
large nozzles for proper injection duration at 5-6k RPM
looking for torque will just bring you failures

stock rods would be fine, but you'll need trapezoidal small ends to run the better pistons so may as well just start out with the PD bottom end with an ALH head

eddieleephd · Oct 25, 2018

Those old v8 engines were limited by their transmission speed wise. Throw a nice new 5 speed on them and watch it move!

Sent from my Armor_2 using Tapatalk

algirdas · Oct 25, 2018

486 is right about building HP.
Huge torque on small engine pulling huge loads will break.
But carefully done only on occasion can work, since you’re your own warranty.

I plan to build a BHW/ALH hybrid next year.
It’s a chunk of detail work, but very doable.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=5451376

Owain@malonetuning · Oct 25, 2018

Totally agree with Jon and 486 there in terms of power. You'll want at minimum a GTB1756 turbo to manage heat.

Or you could go off the deep end like whitbread and run a 50 psi BHW compound setup in a ranger for towing, that things an animal and EGTs are pretty low.

Wide open up a grade towing is going to be a little tricky past 3 tons and you'd probably want to step up to a BHW for that and still expect to drop a gear.

midnightoil · Oct 25, 2018

[486] said:
alh in a fullsize truck for towing
right?

ditch the stupid tiny turbos and you'll gain reliability

you'll probably want the pistons with oil channels for better cooling
large nozzles for proper injection duration at 5-6k RPM
looking for torque will just bring you failures

stock rods would be fine, but you'll need trapezoidal small ends to run the better pistons so may as well just start out with the PD bottom end with an ALH head

ALH in a fullsize car or light/midsize truck for lots of hwy miles, with occasional towing (but up to heavy when it does)

I'm looking to start with a normal ALH (using the rule of thumb of building for 180whp and 300ft-lbs), and when I eventually rebuild it to look at BHW type internals in the ALH block and ALH head. (looking for 230whp/400ft-lbs) Heck the first 89-93 Dodge Cummins were only 400ft-lbs! Of course they'd do it all year long... i'm wondering if even BHW internals would take putting out 400ft-lbs for extended periods.

eddieleephd said:
Those old v8 engines were limited by their transmission speed wise. Throw a nice new 5 speed on them and watch it move!

Considering an NV3500 actually.

algirdas said:
486 is right about building HP.
Huge torque on small engine pulling huge loads will break.
But carefully done only on occasion can work, since you’re your own warranty.

I plan to build a BHW/ALH hybrid next year.

Yes that's the plan, "only on occasion". It's like this - driving my 100hp Saturn i've passed up potential bring home loads in the 2000-7000lb range that if I could have hauled them home would have been worth say from $300-800 to me each. By the time i've hauled home just a few HEAVY loads, if the engine dies, it's basically paid for itself.

If I were planning on towing ALOT i'd go Cummins, this is definately for a highway cruiser with good MPG... just more towing ability than a Jetta/Passat. A Cummins will not give me highway cruising good MPG for a half million miles. (and is also loud and harsh and heavy)

Owain@malonetuning said:
Totally agree with Jon and 486 there in terms of power. You'll want at minimum a GTB1756 turbo to manage heat.

Or you could go off the deep end like whitbread and run a 50 psi BHW compound setup in a ranger for towing, that things an animal and EGTs are pretty low.

Wide open up a grade towing is going to be a little tricky past 3 tons and

Yes, specific suggestions, thank you - I will learn about this turbo, or you can tell me about it too. I'm also planning on running water-methanol injection fairly aggressively meaning if I run out of blue juice I get off the throttle because it's not very often I plan to do this.

Will compounds even work without radical computer changes? Is an ALH/BHW hybrid as good as a straight up BHW? Do any of the other codes have any relevance to hybrid engines or is the ALH/BHW my best option for a setup I mean to bolt an ALH into first?

I can't imagine needing more power than 230whp and 400ft-lbs, but an upgrade to lower EGT's and the internals to keep my foot in it longer if not too expensive i'd consider.

Owain@malonetuning · Oct 25, 2018

On compound setups the tuning is the easy part, sizing both turbos appropriately and setting up external wastegates, turbo speed signal, and fabbing the whole system is harder. Boost is controlled manually at that point, so it's basically a matter of "I need X% more fuel at Y load and Z RPM"

One thing to consider is that these larger V8s only making 200 hp aren't under the same kind of stress as a heavily boosted smaller diesel would be, meaning you could just floor it all day and it wouldn't care vs an ALH overheating. Only have so much thermal capacity to work with in terms of oil, coolant, and exhaust temps. Increasing fluid capacity and running an AWIC system will help sustained loads.

Darkside has a nice table of common turbo sizes

you'll sacrifice a fair bit of bottom end going larger than a 1756, at which point pulling away and short shifting with loads might become a little annoying. Personally I've put a lot of miles on 2260 2L commonrails and love them, but it's not for everyone or every application.

eddieleephd · Oct 26, 2018

Owain@malonetuning said:
you'll sacrifice a fair bit of bottom end going larger than a 1756, at which point pulling away and short shifting with loads might become a little annoying. .

I personally think of it like the ram on a natural aspiration engine. The shorter the ram/smaller turbo, the lower the power band. The longer the ram/larger turbo, the higher the power band.
Ex: vnt15 is spooling in the 1600 range and the vnt17 1900 rpm range. The larger you go, the higher the power band and less torque it yeilds causing less get up and go at low end, which is where these engines are designed to shine.
Understand everything Owain's saying as he knows more about these engines than most.
Understanding that chart
http://s49.photobucket.com/user/xero_xero/media/Honda Wiring/6b2eb3bd.gif.html

flee · Oct 26, 2018

midnightoil (great band btw), if this is a blank sheet of paper project then start with
a BHW. I can't think of a compelling reason to add the extra trouble of upgrading an
ALH to BHW specs and hot-rodding it to reach your power goal. The BHW had over
50% more power from the factory than the ALH. That's a lot of free engineering.
Work out your adaptation woes using the stock engine package and see how it does.
It will be so much easier to troubleshot one project at a time.

turbocharged798 · Oct 26, 2018

For what the OP wants, an OM606 would probably be a much better engine to start with. The ALH is a great engine but face it, its a small 4 banger. Running it 100+Hp continuously is going to break it.

eddieleephd · Oct 26, 2018

turbocharged798 said:
The ALH is a great engine but face it, its a small 4 banger. Running it 100+Hp continuously is going to break it.

^^^^^^^

Sent from my Armor_2 using Tapatalk

mrfiat · Oct 26, 2018

"The ALH is a great engine but face it, its a small 4 banger. Running it 100+Hp continuously is going to break it."

Does everyone agree with this? The ALH engine seems pretty stout IMO. A stage 4 tune is way more than 100 HP and there are a lot of people on here running stage 4 tunes without issues. (That I am aware of anyways)

I have had a turbo on my Lotus Elise for 13 years. 275 HP instead of 175. My Lotus has been running flawlessly all these years and it is a smaller engine. 1.8 liter. I realize this is just one example. When the turbo was installed they left the engine/head stock.

[486] · Oct 26, 2018

eh, steady state cruise at 70mph in a golf is maybe 20-30hp?

there is kind of a reason that 200hp industrial engines are 1200lbs or more, they're built to do that 200hp at 1800rpm, 365 days a year for 10 years or so until you dump an in-frame kit in it (wet liners!) for another ten years of service

you can get an intermittent 400 hp out of an alh for a few quarter mile passes
you can get an intermittent 300 hp out of an alh for a few miles at a time
you can get an intermittent 200 hp out of an alh for many miles

Everything wears out, good tune file will get you further, but most tdis don't go 500k in small cars before they're slap worn out
Mine had nearly 5/32" of play in the valve guides at 135k miles. That's "how did it even run?" territory.

midnightoil · Oct 28, 2018

Owain@malonetuning said:
On compound setups the tuning is the easy part,

One thing to consider is that these larger V8s only making 200 hp aren't under the same kind of stress as a heavily boosted smaller diesel would be, meaning you could just floor it all day and it wouldn't care vs an ALH overheating. Only have so much thermal capacity to work with in terms of
oil, coolant, and exhaust temps. Increasing fluid capacity and running an AWIC system will help sustained loads.

you'll sacrifice a fair bit of bottom end going larger than a 1756, at which

Generally at what point do people start going compound? (in terms of normally HP interest I assume, not towing) Looking around the 1756 seems like a good single turbo option for up to around 220hp or so but i'm sure thats for short term bursts. Does a 1756 make just as much sense if i'm only running 180hp though? (like if I buy with an intent to later upgrade internals but dont until rebuilding)

What is the lowest HP you think a compound system starts to make sense?

How much extra does a compound system cost?

Any suggestions of "what sustained HP" the EGT's will start climbing generally (I would assume not far over stock would be my guess), and at what upper limit OTHER THERMAL LOADS become of considerable problem? (ie irrelevant if EGT's are low, the engine is just running too hard/hot)

flee said:
midnightoil (great band btw), if this is a blank sheet of paper project then start with
a BHW. I can't think of a compelling reason to add the extra trouble of upgrading an
ALH to BHW specs and hot-rodding it to reach your power goal.

Well I have a few for various reasons...

I'm 90% sure i'm just going to buy a 2001-2003 Jetta no matter what and start there. That will come with an ALH.

If and when the vehicle starts to give me problems (outside the engine) and VW not having stellar reliability reputation (engines are great, rest of the car, impression i'm getting is not so much, not like a Toyota or something), i'm considering just pulling the engine and throwing it into either a late 90's S10 or a Tacoma. (as long as the FWD origin of the engine is not a problem/or are there certain engines only to find for RWD use?) Depending on mileage it may or may not get a rebuild, and if rebuilding I might as well upgrade.

Alot of the talk of light truck and fullsize car options is more curiosity than fully serious, I mean i'd say 60% curiosity 40% serious, i'm not asking for nothing, but REALISTICALLY it's probably going first Jetta, then minitruck, and i'm just half curious if I can still do things with the engine besides or after the minitruck.

There's also that I expect to possibly have more than one TDI 'in the family' (and possibly more than two in the extended family) which will also be ALH's, and I guess i'm the kind of guy that gets familiar with one thing and likes to stick with whats familiar.

I could list others, but i'm pretty sure of sticking with the ALH even if I have to lower power expectations or change FUTURE vehicle expectations since i'm still likely starting with a normal Jetta. If the main upgrades are just sticking in BHW crank, rod, pistons, that didn't seem like a huge inconvenience? Or are the BHW/ALH hybrids alot more involved for that extra 50hp?

turbocharged798 said:
For what the OP wants, an OM606 would probably be a much better engine to start with. The ALH is a great engine but face it, its a small 4 banger. Running it 100+Hp continuously is going to break it.

I don't think a 606 will provide the power I want, and near as I can tell the BSFC is notably worse. ALH is top of the line/as high as ever realistically been achieved in small cars.

"Running it 100hp continually will break it" - i'm pretty sure that would break a 606 too, but that has less clear upgrade paths. (no BHW hybrids and such)

If it really WILL break it, then i'm going to want to NOT run those power levels continually. I'm just wondering how long I can run 130hp or 180hp as lets say 3/4 throttle and full throttle in the Rockies with a load behind, no matter what that load happens to be. (weight, aero, or whatever)

Seeing Matt Whitbred's Ranger videos has convinced me i'm not completely insane for asking some questions, but I too am wondering how long it will keep running with it's current use. (I can't even find a listing of what the power is, but i'm pretty sure he's making more than i'll ever plan to)

midnightoil · Oct 28, 2018

mrfiat said:
"The ALH is a great engine but face it, its a small 4 banger. Running it 100+Hp continuously is going to break it."

Does everyone agree with this?.

[486] said:
eh, steady state cruise at 70mph in a golf is maybe 20-30hp?

you can get an intermittent 200 hp out of an alh for many miles

Even in my guesstimated fullsize car option 44% more drag would make that 30-45hp sustained in daily driving, and that will be 90% of the miles seen. The only times it starts becoming a heavier load is when a trailer is on there, and only then when 55mph is not enough for safety. (I have been in situations where if you didn't drive 70mph in the right lane you got driven over, ie Cinncinati near rush hour for some reason, I had my 100hp Saturn floored with it's 1200lbs of trailer behind it alot more than I liked then)

There's some "usually not" modifiers which is why i'm even considering this.

The vehicle will usually not have a trailer, i'd say 90% either with nothing, or with an empty trailer (with almost no aero load, just 300lbs tare).

The vehicle when it does have a trailer, will usually not have a HEAVY trailer. (my little folder up to 1200lbs loaded would be what I normally bring things home with) I'd say a load heavier than that is going to be 3% of miles or less, like one third of trailer laden miles as a random guess.

How many miles out of my planned 500,000 mile engine will heavy loads 3% of the time take out of it? I'm not sure but i'm perfectly willing to pay that, if it drops to 400k or 300k, i'm only towing heavy when there is a good reason. Like bringing home another Jetta on a car dolly is one example, which better be a good deal/saving me $300-800 over just having someone pull the engine and ship it to me. (and I mean over the freight difference, for the hassle i'd rather just be shipped some things, but if it's half off day at the U Pull It I might want to come home with $3000 of engines)

I consider 3500lbs heavy. I plan to do this even if i'm driving the ALH in the Jetta it probably came from.

REALLY heavy is anything over that, which I no longer feel safe with the brakes and suspension of the Jetta to do. (or maybe it's even at 3500lbs despite Euro style towing) That's going to be maybe 1% of miles. If I have a Jetta I dont do these tows at all.

I've already passed over the 1% really heavy and 3% heavy loads with the 300k miles i've put on my Saturn SL, that's never towed more than 1200lbs with it's 100hp. I've "lost" thousands of dollars I could have saved for projects or made if i'd just had the weight capacity to bring it home.

Seeing Matt Whitbred's 4400lb ranger towing 6500lbs with a BEW/ALH hybrid scooting around with authority is what makes me curious if it's really all that unreasonable to 'push things like this' when the heavier duty cycles are maybe 3% of the miles traveled. Obviously I don't want to break an engine and get stranded.

eddieleephd · Oct 28, 2018

It's been said before that the greatest barrier is cooling and keeping it cool. This becomes both easier and more difficult with a larger vehicle. Easier because you already have a larger radiator, more difficult because the water pump and internal coolant capacity is limiting.
The 1.8t gas engines have an auxillary coolant pump that may be viable to help cool the engine.

Sent from my Armor_2 using Tapatalk

[486] · Oct 28, 2018

on the topic of better cooling, the water pump has a lot more capacity if you open up the flow path to it
The bypass pipe is 100% of your non-tstat flow. This is what distributes the heat through the engine. It is only 5/8" ID or so where it goes into the back of the water pump. When reducing the restriction here however you run into the radiator loop losing head. Many thermostats have a plunger on the back that blocks off bypass flow once they're open so that the radiator sees all the pump head, this is not implemented in the ALH block casting. You can run an external thermostat however that will handle bypass flow more elegantly. You'll need to do a lot of rework in routing as the bypass feed is what runs the oil cooler and heater core. Not hard, but something to brain out.

The plastic impellers actually flow a lot better than the cast iron ones, one brass one I've seen looked middle of the road between the two.

On the loading/lifespan questions, nobody can really answer it but you. This is somewhere that you can do months worth of math and it's all for nothing because one basic assumption you make will be slightly wrong.

Put it together. Monitor oil temp, coolant temp, EGT, EMP, IMP, when it breaks look at why it broke, ect...
You may well get 200k out of it if you choose the right parts, my example earlier ate its valve guides in 135k because it spent most of that time with a plugged up intake (cleaned out 4-5 times according to service records!) meaning that the EMP was probably well above 30 psi most its life from the VNT trying to force the engine to breathe. I know I saw spikes over 80 psi later on with a poor tune file on it.

midnightoil · Oct 30, 2018

[486] said:
on the topic of better cooling, the water pump has a lot more capacity if you open up the flow path to it

On the loading/lifespan questions, nobody can really answer it but you.
Put it together. Monitor oil temp, coolant temp, EGT, EMP, IMP, when it breaks look at why it broke, ect...
You may well get 200k out of it if you choose the right parts, my example

To the last comment, i'm sure that's true.

I'm just trying to learn from people who pushed things and definately learned "the hard way", i'm realizing if I do any of this (at least more than an S10/Taco) i'll be pushing rarely charted territory. I'm willing to risk some of that even if it means a broken engine or two, this isn't something where "I absolutely cannot afford to break down", there are experimental aspects I accept as part and parcel.

I'm very interested in other people chiming in observations or ideas. Mostly i'm trying to avoid upgrading things NOT necessary, and figure out what is probably safe vs just plain unknown. Like i'm not the only one moving heavier weights or even towing, and i've become more enamored with the idea of a BHW/ALH hybrid, at least the idea of it sounds like crank rods and pistons are all stronger in the BHW, along with head studs since those are known strength issues and even if I were only running 180hp suggested to be ALH safe, i'm sure BHW rods would last longer at that 180hp and it doesn't sound like that's an impossibly expensive upgrade.

Are there actually benefits to the full BHW other than simplicity? I mean is the block or heads of the ALH actually a weak point somehow, or other than that coolant difference a problem? If it's BHW vs BHW/ALH hybrid I mean...

Does anyone have any ideas on 'retrofitting a custom water cooled turbo' as suggested by CleverUserName back on the first page? That may be one remaining cooling concern otherwise...

I think I would plan a 1756 single turbo only for simplicity, even if EGT's might not be as low as on a true compound, i'm hoping a stout water injection system would handle it. 220hp is nothing to sneeze at and I don't think i'm willing to go to alot more complexity for a little more power on any first build, when i'm waiting to see how well the BHW hybrid internals stand up to sustained numbers anywhere in the 100-190hp range anyways.

Alternately perhaps water-meth injection can boost me over that figure for peak short term accel. (two stage at least, water only for like an extended uphill, with full throttle switch for water/meth mix for the last bit of power...)

I'm still all ears if people have other suggestions incl my mental curiosities about compounds and such earlier, even if I file it away for the future and don't plan to implement it sooner.

[486] · Oct 31, 2018

water cooled turbos are only really for passive convection cooling after shutting down a hot engine
normal oil cooling is fine even for gasoline EGTs, provided you don't shut down when the turbine housing is still glowing

not 100% on if the BRM has the larger journals for sure, but the newer rods in an ALH block needs a newer crank, the rod journals are bigger on the newer stuff

AndyBees · Oct 31, 2018

Too much to read in two minutes .....

Considering this endeavor is a TDI Conversion, maybe the OP needs to start a thread in that category. Those who've exposed all these engines to similar circumstances can share their experiences.

For what it's worth, the ALH in my 84 Vanagon (about 3800 lbs) with a Stage 1 Tune (about 110-115 HP) handles pulling a small camper (1200 lbs) as well as all of our "stuff" on board and in the camper, as well as four humans... prolly totaling another 1,000 lbs. Climbing through the Rockies was not a problem. EGTs stay below 1000f, but under some circumstances have increased to 1100f. It will cruise hour after hour at 70 mph, 3125 RPMs with ease, even in a head wind.

Besides the tune, everything else about the engine is basically stock. The exhaust is shorter but about the same diameter and I did include the CAT. In my circumstances, I see no need for additional HP or Torque.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the OP needs to decide if he wants to keep the ALH all electronic or do a Manual IP set-up. The other engines mentioned are electronically controlled and no way to modify to manual...

Mituk · Oct 31, 2018

If I were planning on towing ALOT i'd go Cummins, this is definately for a highway cruiser with good MPG... just more towing ability than a Jetta/Passat. A Cummins will not give me highway cruising good MPG for a half million miles. (and is also loud and harsh and heavy)

I was going to say the same - I know a guy who has a Cummins 4BT in a Ford Ranger, with a 27% overdrive unit mounted behind it. He'll get 32mpg and can still tow 5klbs if he leaves the OD off.
Regarding cooling, anything that will flow more air is going to help - kind of obvious, but can be a good guideline.

You hit the nail on the head when recognizing the need for more robust stopping capability as the loads rise. Lots of setups can get a load moving - controlling and stopping is an entirely different ballgame.

Sounds like an extremely interesting project - looking forward to hearing what you end up with!

midnightoil · Oct 31, 2018

[486] said:
water cooled turbos are only really for passive convection cooling after shutting down a hot engine
normal oil cooling is fine even for gasoline EGTs, provided you don't shut down when the turbine housing is still glowing

not 100% on if the BRM has the larger journals for sure, but the newer rods in an ALH block needs a newer crank, the rod journals are bigger on the newer stuff

So... a turbo timer should fix it fine then.

I'm okay swapping crank and rods, long as the mains are the same size. The other variable is if at some point the block or heads (despite head studs) become an issue.

AndyBees said:
Too much to read in two minutes .....

Considering this endeavor is a TDI Conversion, maybe the OP needs to start a thread in that category.

Thats kind of what this is, I just wasn't set on vehicle yet. Jetta or minitruck probably, but exploring other options.

Short version - I already tow with 100hp in a Saturn SL and my total scale weight was 4200lbs (vehicle, in car cargo, and 1200lbs of trailer) and I thought it handled it fine. But at times it was on the floor when crazy cincinnati drivers wanted to drive over me even at 70mph in the right lane.

I would like to sometimes tow heavier - whether this is a Jetta, or a TDI swap to a minitruck, so i'm wondering how much power is reliable.

AndyBees said:
I forgot to mention, the OP needs to decide if he wants to keep the ALH all electronic or do a Manual IP set-up. The other engines mentioned are electronically controlled and no way to modify to manual...

I was most considering ALH or an ALH/BHW hybrid, I assumed if the ALH block and heads were used, that even an m-TDI system would be an option. I would PREFER electronic. But I do like the idea of possibly going m-TDI as well even if I might tone down power expectations. (because electronics improve driveability) I want an ALH or modified ALH block i'm 99% sure and not a pump duse, and not an older model.

Mituk said:
If I were planning on towing ALOT i'd go Cummins, this is definately for a

You hit the nail on the head when recognizing the need for more robust stopping capability as the loads rise. Lots of setups can get a load moving - controlling and stopping is an entirely different ballgame.

Sounds like an extremely interesting project - looking forward to hearing what you end up with!

I can expand my thinking but people are already probably rolling eyes at my verbosity.

The Cummins are just so HARSH, especially the 4bt, will shake my fillings out. I dont like the idea of a half million miles with that. If this were to be "usually laden" i'd be more keen on this, but 90% of miles I expect to be unladen and 2/3 of trailer miles 1200lbs or less.

The Isuzu 4bd are a bit crude in comparison with alot less aftermarket support.

The Mercedes OM6xx are common but older and notably less efficient.

All those are heavier and larger than a VW.

I just really like the ALH because of many reasons:
- Among the most efficient diesels of its size ever made, up to 42% thermal efficiency only matched by the newest ones. (the interim pump duse's were less)
- I havent ruled out playing with waste oil, veggie oil and similar. High pressure pump duse is a no no. Older IDI is just too weak. By all accounts i've read the ALH is the one to experiment on.
- I might end up with a small fleet of them. I'm the guy that likes to learn one car or engine model (for self service and such) and not change it, if mine works chances are good my girlfriend will have one next, and a third might end up in a pickup even if I stick with a Jetta for my daily driver. That makes it easier to be familiar with repairs, problems, keep spare parts around like one ready to go engine for if/when another dies that serves three vehicles, etc. I also have two friends who might move on, one who already has a Jetta, and another who is interested in getting a waste oil Jetta and doesn't turn his own wrenches...

There's more, but it's part of why i'm trying to funnel my interests into one specific engine model.

In short I hope to do not just one project but possibly more than one, however i'm trying to not sound TOO excited until I play with the first one and see how that works because I don't want to be that guy who comes on with huge ideas and is then never heard from again.

There's alot of things it seems like I can do with an ALH whether I just want efficiency, or performance, or light towing, or an m-TDI version with veggie oil in the future when fuel hits $12 a gallon when were at war with iran and sitting around eating toasted rat on a stick, etc etc etc. It just all starts with one project, I expect that to lead to others, but it's the future options that also encourage me to explore that first project more heavily.

That's why it seems to come back to always ALH based, and wondering just how many things I can do with those small block chevy v6/v8 style mounts.

TdiRN · Nov 1, 2018

Why not look for something with a larger frame and/or a cummins 4bbt?

midnightoil · Nov 4, 2018

TdiRN said:
Why not look for something with a larger frame and/or a cummins 4bbt?

I'm in favor of the larger frame, thats why I talk about swaps to a minitruck.

The 4bt is just so rough and harsh and hard on transmissions from the apparent nature of it's power pulses i'd prefer something else. A highway cruiser needs highway manners to not wear me out from too much driving - the TDI is refined.

I'll see if anyone else has any insights from this thread before trying to ask a more focused question in a new related thread.

[486] · Nov 4, 2018

midnightoil said:
The 4bt is just so rough and harsh and hard on transmissions from the apparent nature of it's power pulses i'd prefer something else. A highway cruiser needs highway manners to not wear me out from too much driving - the TDI is refined.

the tdi doesn't run 16 degrees of fixed injection timing
so the idle might be smoother
the 4bt has about a hundred lbs of rotating mass on the VW, and much further out than the tdi so at rated power (say 150hp) the 4bt is going to be smoother running

ALH longevity at (x) HP output/how much reliable HP/weak points?

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Associate Vendor , w/Business number

Veteran Member

Associate Vendor , w/Business number

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg