NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

I also have an '09 Loyalty Edition with a 05/08 build date with 59k miles. The car has been great and was flawless until my HPFP went last month. While VW is covering these without push back, I wouldn't worry too much. When or if VW's stance changes, I would rethink holding onto the car given the risk and cost associated with this failure.

My $.02.....

Yes through GEICO. Doesn't change anything though really. 90% or more of owners will not encounter this issue. If you have to worry about it every day you should probably sell the car before you get an ulcer. But those people would then find something else to obsess about. Keep informed about the issue but don't worry about it until it is called for.

TDI2000Zim said:

You do have Mechanical Breakdown insurance, do you?

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I have auto insurance, but I have no idea if it covers mechanical breakdown. I doubt that it covers that.

Lightflyer1 said:

Yes through GEICO. Doesn't change anything though really. 90% or more of owners will not encounter this issue. If you have to worry about it every day you should probably sell the car before you get an ulcer. But those people would then find something else to obsess about. Keep informed about the issue but don't worry about it until it is called for.

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You do realize that anything approaching 10% is a STATISTICAL CERTAINTY .

This is not a weather forecast.

I'm astonished by the paranoia more than anything. Are people really selling their cars because they're worried about failure? I bet the vast majority of cars will easily make it to 200,000 miles without a pump failure. Maybe my car, now at 75,000 miles will die on me tomorrow. So be it. I'll play the odds. A coworker of mine just had the transmission on his ML 350 go on him at relatively low miles. Mercedes wants $10,000 to replace it.

I could buy a Toyota Corolla and be totally bored by my transportation. Instead I made a compromise and bought another VW. Does that make me irrational or a poor decision maker?

TDI2000Zim said:

You do realize that anything approaching 10% is a STATISTICAL CERTAINTY

.

This is not a weather forecast.

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Tell that to the 10's of thousands of people that own cars that have no issue with this at all. Yes it is bad if it happens to you. The few with failures that get all the airplay overwhelms the many who have no issue at all. I don't recall the exact number but IIRC it was something like 60k to 80k cars sold and 5k or so with issues. I still stand by be informed and worry when/if it happens.

pleopard said:

I'm astonished by the paranoia more than anything. Are people really selling their cars because they're worried about failure? I bet the vast majority of cars will easily make it to 200,000 miles without a pump failure. Maybe my car, now at 75,000 miles will die on me tomorrow. So be it. I'll play the odds. A coworker of mine just had the transmission on his ML 350 go on him at relatively low miles. Mercedes wants $10,000 to replace it.
I could buy a Toyota Corolla and be totally bored by my transportation. Instead I made a compromise and bought another VW. Does that make me irrational or a poor decision maker?

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A friend of mine has a Mercedes with push button start. It went bad and I think the estimate was something like $3000. His car was out of warranty but Mercedes did end up covering it.

Lightflyer1 said:

Tell that to the 10's of thousands of people that own cars that have no issue with this at all. Yes it is bad if it happens to you. The few with failures that get all the airplay overwhelms the many who have no issue at all. I don't recall the exact number but IIRC it was something like 60k to 80k cars sold and 5k or so with issues. I still stand by be informed and worry when/if it happens.

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My thoughts exactly!

Lightflyer1 said:

Tell that to the 10's of thousands of people that own cars that have no issue with this at all. Yes it is bad if it happens to you. The few with failures that get all the airplay overwhelms the many who have no issue at all. I don't recall the exact number but IIRC it was something like 60k to 80k cars sold and 5k or so with issues. I still stand by be informed and worry when/if it happens.

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They all have the issue. As Dirty Harry said: "you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

^ It would probably be more accurate to say that they all have the design flaw, but the amount of mileage at which the flaw results in a failure varies substantially based on factors that are not fully understood, and at least some of which are beyond the control of the owner/operator (e.g. production tolerances when the pump was first built, and properties of the fuel purchased at a retail pump, which the owner/operator has no control over).

well, I would think if it lasts 150k, it's not as much of a design flaw at that point..

TDI2000Zim said:

You do realize that anything approaching 10% is a STATISTICAL CERTAINTY

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What is that supposed to mean? 10% is a one in ten chance. 100% is 'statistical certainty'.

Diesl said:

What is that supposed to mean? 10% is a one in ten chance. 100% is 'statistical certainty'.

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Go ahead, get a revolver with ten chambers, put a bullet in one and start playing Russian Roulette.

HPFP failures have nothing in common with revolvers..


I was wondering about that statement.. So if 9% of the cars will have the failure over the course of their life, I can't see that meaning that mine has a 100% chance of failure..

TDIJetta99 said:

well, I would think if it lasts 150k, it's not as much of a design flaw at that point..

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As I've said in the past, there was something behind the fuel pump manufacturers pushing for stricter lubricity standards, but it seems lubricity is not the problem, at least not from the evidence so far.

What seems to be the problem is more general. Engineering has always been a compromise of cost vs. longevity. Just like anyone can produce a fast car that gets poor fuel economy (BMW M3), one can engineer a fuel pump that lasts a million miles that basically costs as much to make as an entire engine.

Bosch may have had a bit of the lower cost in mind in trying to push the fuel quality up rather than bear the cost of producing a more expensive fuel pump. The lubricity standard was not the only thing, though, that may have tripped up their "lower cost" fuel pump design.

TM

TDIJetta99 said:

HPFP failures have nothing in common with revolvers..


I was wondering about that statement.. So if 9% of the cars will have the failure over the course of their life, I can't see that meaning that mine has a 100% chance of failure..

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OK, let's shun guns.

If you had to board an airplane that has ~10% chances of crashing, would you?

TDI2000Zim said:

Go ahead, get a revolver with ten chambers, put a bullet in one and start playing Russian Roulette.

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You mean that when your diesel croaks you're going to kill yourself?

Tin Man said:

As I've said in the past, there was something behind the fuel pump manufacturers pushing for stricter lubricity standards, but it seems lubricity is not the problem, at least not from the evidence so far.
[...]
Bosch may have had a bit of the lower cost in mind in trying to push the fuel quality up rather than bear the cost of producing a more expensive fuel pump. The lubricity standard was not the only thing, though, that may have tripped up their "lower cost" fuel pump design.
TM

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But the pump is certainly not a "low cost" item. Considering the relatively small number of parts, it should cost a whole lot less than it does. The Bosch presentation on the pump design clearly shows it to be long-lasting at typical European diesel lubricity. The only slip-up I can see is bringing the design to the USA without modifying the design for the low-lubricity environment.

At the very least a fail-safe filter to catch the parts from the disintegrating pump would have saved a load of money in (?warranty) repairs.

bluey said:

But the pump is certainly not a "low cost" item. Considering the relatively small number of parts, it should cost a whole lot less than it does. The Bosch presentation on the pump design clearly shows it to be long-lasting at typical European diesel lubricity. The only slip-up I can see is bringing the design to the USA without modifying the design for the low-lubricity environment.

At the very least a fail-safe filter to catch the parts from the disintegrating pump would have saved a load of money in (?warranty) repairs.

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Fuel pumps have historically been an expensive item for diesels compared to gassers and for some designs, a source of problems.

There seems to be no question that European diesel fuel has better quality but not much is mentioned as to how this quality is monitored both here in NA or in the rest of the world. VW may find out the main problem with HPFP failures is, for example, misfueling and running the tank to empty (more likely in NA perhaps).

I don't think we really know.

TM

What would it take to produce Euro quality lubricity in the USA? Are we just talking additives or are we talking about massive Refinery redesign?

TDI2000Zim said:

OK, let's shun guns.

If you had to board an airplane that has ~10% chances of crashing, would you?

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Absolutely not, but that most certainly will kill me if the plane went down... HPFP failure will just make you break down on the side of the road.. it isn't life threatening..


I still stand by the statement that 9% DOES NOT equal 100% under any circumstances..

LRTDI said:

What would it take to produce Euro quality lubricity in the USA? Are we just talking additives or are we talking about massive Refinery redesign?

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2% biodiesel will ensure < 400 micron wear scar.

Fix the fuel, or the pump?

LRTDI: > What would it take to produce Euro quality lubricity in the USA? Are we just talking additives or are we talking about massive Refinery redesign?

Two problems, one of which is multiple additional problems:
1. Improving the target spec (ASTM wear scar).
2. Delivering spec at the pump

The spec arguably does not really need to be enhanced. If you could reliably get ASTM spec at every station, we'd be seeing a lot fewer HPFP failures. Yes, it would make sense to harmonize the US with the rest of the world, but heck, we can't even reliably deliver current US spec.

The delivery problems include:

• EPA Tier II ULSD. Can't add lubricity agent pre-pipeline. It has to be added at the terminal, introducing risk that it won't be done correctly.
• Gasoline contamination in the tanker trucks and at stations.
• Water contamination risk at every step, and risk from bio diesel mixes (BD is hygroscopic).
• Poor stewardship at cheapo stations, where they fail to check the tanks for dirt and water.

VW might like to solve their design goof by getting Euro style delivery discipline in the US. I don't see it happening soon enough to save the Botch CP4.1. Don't forget, lubricity never used to be an issue for VW injector pumps, and if one failed, it didn't cause timing-belt class collateral damage.

The tech at my dealer says they didn't have any HPFP failures come in last year. He thinks that's due to it being a drought year here in the Great Plains, which kept rain water and condensed humidity out of station diesel tanks. It's been raining here for the last two days.

LRTDI said:

What would it take to produce Euro quality lubricity in the USA? Are we just talking additives or are we talking about massive Refinery redesign?

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Probably very little, given that there are already refineries in North America producing diesel fuel with the same lubricity spec (Canada), and relative to the cost of gasoline, we pay less for diesel than the Americans do. I do not know why the US resists changing the fuel specification to match worldwide standards. Trucking industry lobby group worried about $0.01 per gallon?

TDIJetta99 said:

Absolutely not, but that most certainly will kill me if the plane went down... HPFP failure will just make you break down on the side of the road.. it isn't life threatening..


I still stand by the statement that 9% DOES NOT equal 100% under any circumstances..

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Obviously not, and I don't think that's what he means. I think what he means is this: if you have a quarter, and flip it an x amount of times, you will get some heads, and some tails. Now the more you flip it, the closer you will get to a perfect 50/50 ratio. Flipping it an infinity amount of times yields a statistical certainty of 50%.

Same with the hppf failures. The sample size is big enough that you can predict with certainty the rate of failures.

Oh, that makes more sense.. I thought he meant that with a 10% failure rate, you're certain to have a failure...

The initial design, after evaluation and problems, has had at least two revisions to the pump. It was enough of a problem that Bosch revised parts at least twice.

TDIJetta99 said:

Absolutely not, but that most certainly will kill me if the plane went down... HPFP failure will just make you break down on the side of the road.. it isn't life threatening..


I still stand by the statement that 9% DOES NOT equal 100% under any circumstances..

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Tell that to the lady whose VW TDi stopped abruptly and died in the middle of a toll road with a subsequent crash (one of the stories documented in the NHTSA report).

Not all blown HPFP happen in your driveway.

TDI2000Zim said:

Tell that to the lady whose VW TDi stopped abruptly in the middle of toll road and died in the subsequent crash (one of the stories documented in the NHTSA report).

Not all blown HPFP happen in your driveway.

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ANY failure of ANY kind that makes you break down has the potential for an accident.. They never recalled mk4's for the failing relay 109's.. Just about every 99-00 mk4 that I know of has been left stranded at one time or another from a bad 109..

03_01_TDI said:

The initial design, after evaluation and problems, has had at least two revisions to the pump. It was enough of a problem that Bosch revised parts at least twice.

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You might be hard pressed to find any mechanical or electrical part on a VW that hasn't had at least one part revision..