Elfnmagik
Veteran Member
Are we talking about the valve that is visible at the front on the intake manifold? Looks like a throttle body?
Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!
- Thread starter GraniteRooster
- Start date
Elfnmagik
Veteran Member
Sidebar.
New iPad user here. I've taken an image of the valve I'm talking about from my cam on the iPad. Can someone help me with how I pull the image from the pad to a host or straight to the forum? Thanks.
New iPad user here. I've taken an image of the valve I'm talking about from my cam on the iPad. Can someone help me with how I pull the image from the pad to a host or straight to the forum? Thanks.
El Dobro
Top Post Dawg
Yep, IIRC it makes the noise after you shut the engine down.
MonsterTDI09
TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2009
- Location
- NoVa/NJ
- TDI
- 2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
Elfnmagik
Veteran Member
The hose that connects to the valve was removed on mine recently. It and the valve had just an oil residue, no sludge.
Softrockrenegade
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2011
- Location
- Howellbama, NJ
- TDI
- None...2011 Golf DSG (replaced by VW W/) 2013 Passat SE 6M(bought back) Current 2017 sportwagen TSI 4Motion.
Download the photobucket app in the app store.
Elfnmagik
Veteran Member
Thanks. Here's the image I wanted to post earlier about the valve in question. It's the throttle body at the manifold form the inter cooler. The entering air hose was disconnected on mine and I was able to catch a look see. It was normal with just a slight residue.
MayorDJQ
Top Post Dawg
There are valves in there. #1 is the HP-EGR valve and #2 is the throttle valve.
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CedarPark68
Veteran Member
I've posted before that I feel based on how VW has responded to the various TDI issues at hand and based upon the complexity of the CR TDI, it is very risky to own this model outside of the 3 year / 36k warranty.
A JSW w/pano is an expensive little car, I'm still paying for mine, a thought that is too active in my mind .... to pay out quickly, to trade at loss ...?????
.... a lock can ruin the engine, with no warranty and no extended warranty one would be doomed.
Elfnmagik
Veteran Member
Mayor, correct and the intake pipe and throttle valve looked normal. No sludge.
VolksDudeTDI
Well-known member
I was always told that a warmer engine pollutes less.....but a colder engine mixture provides more power (more condensed air). I'm still trying to understand why bypassing the Intercooler would cause more emissions...a small intercooler that gets heat soaked in the summer is the same as having no intercooler at all...
I understand a loss of horsepower without an intercooler....but it's something I could live with if it prevents icing during the cold winter months...
I understand a loss of horsepower without an intercooler....but it's something I could live with if it prevents icing during the cold winter months...
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
However, they put a huge intercooler on specifically to avoid heat soak.
Higher intake air temperatures result in higher NOx formation.
Higher intake air temperatures result in higher NOx formation.
pinghg
New member
Is condensation freezing?
Question: Does your vehicle sit outside at night or in a heated or some type of garage?
Question: Does your vehicle sit outside at night or in a heated or some type of garage?
Elfnmagik
Veteran Member
Outside
pinghg
New member
My 09 Jetta with 97K the last two winters and have had at least one issue of not starting in garage in morning. One time would not crank the other time it cranked but would not start and it was much like no fuel.
Then the last two days it has been difficult to start again like again a lack of fuel. Cranks and then it fires up and runs like crap for maybe 5 seconds or more then evens out. After that I drive it 55 miles and no problems.
Got vehicle to Vdub (last year) and never got an explanation that made any sense.
One time I got the fueling gelling BS the other time was some other BS equally lame.
So is the garage starting problem is from condensation (water) being sucked in and outside the condensation is frozen solid so do not seem the problem?
What was frustrating has been I have never had any issues starting after vehicle sat out all day single digits or sub zero.
Then the last two days it has been difficult to start again like again a lack of fuel. Cranks and then it fires up and runs like crap for maybe 5 seconds or more then evens out. After that I drive it 55 miles and no problems.
Got vehicle to Vdub (last year) and never got an explanation that made any sense.
One time I got the fueling gelling BS the other time was some other BS equally lame.
So is the garage starting problem is from condensation (water) being sucked in and outside the condensation is frozen solid so do not seem the problem?
What was frustrating has been I have never had any issues starting after vehicle sat out all day single digits or sub zero.
PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
If you read up, you'll find the issue comes from driving in cold temps then when the car is parked and it warms up to above freezing, the ice melts and forms a slug of water which gets sucked into the engine. I think depending on how much water determines if it's a hard start or a no-start.
That said there was some talk about what the icing might do to performance. I suspect that the icing is restricting air flow. It's about -18C here this morning and my car seems distinctly sluggish; not sure how much of that is due simply to cold and things being tighter or due to air flow. But I noticed it on Christmas night as well in similar conditions.
I think the Passat solution is the only reliable way to go. Use liquid cooling to keep the intercooler at optimum temperature summer or winter. It doesn't have to keep it super warm, just above freezing. I wonder if it would be possible to retrofit this on the A-chassis cars? Somehow I think the cost of the plumbing would be prohibitive...
That said there was some talk about what the icing might do to performance. I suspect that the icing is restricting air flow. It's about -18C here this morning and my car seems distinctly sluggish; not sure how much of that is due simply to cold and things being tighter or due to air flow. But I noticed it on Christmas night as well in similar conditions.
I think the Passat solution is the only reliable way to go. Use liquid cooling to keep the intercooler at optimum temperature summer or winter. It doesn't have to keep it super warm, just above freezing. I wonder if it would be possible to retrofit this on the A-chassis cars? Somehow I think the cost of the plumbing would be prohibitive...
VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Location
- Springfield, VA
- TDI
- ‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
If it's parked in the garage, the frozen condensation will melt, cause a puddle in the intake system and hydrolock the engine when you try to start it.
Parked outside in freezing temps, the frozen condensation will remain frozen and continue to build, thus restricting airflow through the intercooler and reducing engine performance. The next time it all thaws, it will hydrolock your engine.
Either way, you lose.
Parked outside in freezing temps, the frozen condensation will remain frozen and continue to build, thus restricting airflow through the intercooler and reducing engine performance. The next time it all thaws, it will hydrolock your engine.
Either way, you lose.
jackbombay
Top Post Dawg
If you park in a heated garage every night you will never build up enough frost for it to melt into a large enough puddle to hydro lock the engine. Win.
Or you could just drill a 2mm hole like gofaster suggested, but that would entail doing something not in front of a computer
VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Location
- Springfield, VA
- TDI
- ‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Nope... that's not true. If you take a long enough drive, it will build enough frost/condensation to hydrolock your engine the next time you park in your garage or it gets above freezing.
PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
Indeed it's while driving. Any airflow through a restriction will cause a pressure drop and a cooling of the air, with potential condensation of any moisture in the air. Theoretically, it is possible to have condensation and icing at temperatures above freezing. Far more likely in fact in the range just below to just above freezing. In really cold weather the absolute moisture content of the air is probably too little for any serious buildup.
Anyone that flies piston-engined aircraft with a carburetor knows this. I have a carb temp gauge in my Beech, and the icing range goes up to nearly 20C if I recall. In aircraft, in potential icing conditions we run the carburetor on heated (but unfiltered) air periodically to clear ice build-up. There is a slight power loss due to the loss in air density. Look at this chart, you can see that carb icing can happen well above freezing:
Carb icing chart
I've had intercooler icing on three occasions. The first one was after driving about 30 km, and the second one, after about 85 km; the third one was just a few km after the second one. The first two resulted in severe power loss and death-rattle vibration while trying to accelerate (passing maneuver and lane-change), the third was a very hard start. In all cases temperature close to the freezing point. In the parked scenario it got warmer during the day.
Rauss
Veteran Member
I'm all with you on this,
Losing power : I got a replacement vehicule same year and spec of my car and wow it was really more powerfull.
Vibrations : When starting the car dead cold, the engine shake and do a weird sound, when regen it shakes too.
Passing cars on highway when you need it : Well big hesitation and a big white puff after that.
Placed an order on tsb for iced up intercooler and I'll see if this help.
Losing power : I got a replacement vehicule same year and spec of my car and wow it was really more powerfull.
Vibrations : When starting the car dead cold, the engine shake and do a weird sound, when regen it shakes too.
Passing cars on highway when you need it : Well big hesitation and a big white puff after that.
Placed an order on tsb for iced up intercooler and I'll see if this help.
There are several examples of what can happen being presented. If we just go ahead and know there can be many ways the frost, water, freeze, thaw, hydrolock, hammer without lock, wet combustion causing miss, almost totally frozen hoses, totally frosted intercooler, parts failure electronic glitches etc; then add a few more situations we did not think of. There are going to be differences in what happens to individual cars. Some theories may be wrong, but the fact is still going to be that there are more than just a few ways a failure can happen.
This is all an interesting read lately. One solution is still to force a thaw and drain, before start; or drain after thaw but before freeze (perhaps automatic). And.... Even the solutions do not have to be limited to just one or two solutions
The kit will help some, and additional steps will help even more. Since the cars are so complicated the solutions are just going to be complicated themselves. Due to the desire of owners to not be involved in the solution, a lot of work has to be directed to automated solutions.
eddif
This is all an interesting read lately. One solution is still to force a thaw and drain, before start; or drain after thaw but before freeze (perhaps automatic). And.... Even the solutions do not have to be limited to just one or two solutions
The kit will help some, and additional steps will help even more. Since the cars are so complicated the solutions are just going to be complicated themselves. Due to the desire of owners to not be involved in the solution, a lot of work has to be directed to automated solutions.
eddif
bdisco
Veteran Member
Went to dealer yesterday for the fuel line dampers(not sure that little rubber blocks are going to stop an explosion), informed them about my hard start and the inter-cooler TSB. Service guy said he had three other cars waiting on the back ordered inter-cooler kit. They inspected my lower hoses and found nothing. I asked if the moisture could have been sucked into the engine and cause a hydro-lock situation. He said no it was just starved for air (yeah like it was drowning under water). So was the water/sludge thats no longer in my pipes somehow vacuumed up and harmlessly expelled out through the exhaust system? Thoughts?
). So was the water/sludge thats no longer in my pipes somehow vacuumed up and harmlessly expelled out through the exhaust system? Thoughts?
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VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Location
- Springfield, VA
- TDI
- ‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Did you get a chance to look inside the pipes for yourself? While some of the water could have been injested, some should have remained, including the oily slime that so many other members have been reporting.
Maybe pop it open at home later and have a look to see what's up.
Maybe pop it open at home later and have a look to see what's up.
It can't be that hard for someone to create a tube with a spring flip cap or something similiar.
No, this is hardly a solution for a car company as part of the sales speech could never be a step where you have to do this but for those who will drive these cars for miles and miles doing all the maintenence it would be nothing.
Pop the hood, pull the spring loaded cap down and stuff either runs out or it doesn't.
No, this is hardly a solution for a car company as part of the sales speech could never be a step where you have to do this but for those who will drive these cars for miles and miles doing all the maintenence it would be nothing.
Pop the hood, pull the spring loaded cap down and stuff either runs out or it doesn't.
bdisco
Veteran Member
No and outside temp was 20F last night and 5F this morning supposed to get up to 45F this weekend so maybe.
VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Location
- Springfield, VA
- TDI
- ‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
It's definitely not good weather for climbing around under the car. Let us know what you find.
740GLE
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2009
- Location
- NH
- TDI
- 2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
Frost is present inside the IC when your driving the car in sub zero temps, repeated operation in sub zero temps the frost will just build slowly choking off the IC and you'll probably never noticed it until a warm day start up.
It's only when this frost melts on a warm day and the car restarts does this water get sucked up into the intake.
It's only when this frost melts on a warm day and the car restarts does this water get sucked up into the intake.
tschatzinger
Veteran Member
Drove my car for about 20 minutes this morning (it started fine, no issues). About two hours later I start it up again, it idles rough and then dies. Same thing second time around. Third time it starts up fine. It's right at 32 degrees outside. Does this sound like an intercooler ice up problem? If so, can someone please enlighten me on where I find the intercooler lines for build-up? 102 pages is a lot to look through, and a quick search didn't turn up anything specific.