Turbo boost and altitude

M

mickey

Guest
This just popped into my head while I was perusing that bastion of intellectual pursuit: The Economy Section.


I've always thought of a turbocharger as "the great equalizer" when it comes to altitude. As long as the turbo can maintain the same boost pressure at high altitude as it does at sea level then power output and engine efficiency should be the same. "18 psi is 18 psi", right?

Wrong! Boost pressure represents the amount of air pressure added to atmospheric pressure by the turbocharger. But at high altitude the atmospheric pressure is lower. Therefore the ABSOLUTE pressure in the cylinders, and hence the oxygen density, is still proportionally lower the higher you go. In order to achieve the same ABSOLUTE pressure at high altitude as you get at sea level you have to run with higher boost pressures. Right? 18psi at sea level is NOT the same as 18psi in Denver, in terms of power output. You'd need to run more like 20 or 21 psi of boost to be "equal."

Please tell me I'm wrong. This seems so obvious that it I'm right I'll be embarassed I didn't think of it before.

-mickey
 

Turbo231

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Location
Conway,Arkansas,USA 2001NB
Sounds like a physics I class questions.
But what I think your refering to is the difference between Absolute pressure and gauge pressure which are different.
You are right in that the boost is read as the difference between outside air pressure and manafold pressure. At altitude the air pressure is lower and so is the density.
So you are filling the cylinders with fewer molecules of air then if you were at sea level with a higher air pressure and density.
The gauge would read the same but fewer molecules would be in the cylinders in Denver.


[This message has been edited by Turbo231 (edited September 14, 2000).]
 
M

mickey

Guest
Damn. I was afraid of that.

That does explain a few things, though. I read stories of "flatlanders" and their almost undrivable TDIs pushing 18 psi. Starting out in 2nd gear. Tire smoke. Etc, etc. Well, mine's Wetted and is running 18 psi and I don't get those effects. It's pretty darn quick, especially compared to other cars gasping in the rarified air up here, but certainly not "undrivable." Now I realize that I have to take things to a whole new level!

On the one hand, that's good news for my engine's longevity. But it's bad news for the torque-crazed speed demon in me. I need about 22 psi and a much bigger intercooler to even MATCH the sea level cars. And if I do all that, and drive it to the West Coast for a GTG or something...KABOOM!

-mickey
 

TyreFryer

Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2000
Hi Mickey,
I think it depends on the tdi controller, till 8/94 the MAP sensor was absolute aferwards it was differential.

Absolut: (no,no guys, not the wodka) means the sensor has a closed reference volume inside. The boost it not altitude corrected, it will allways be the 18 psi + reference volume pressure. If the outside pressure is lower than reference the motor management still tries to reach 18 psi + reference volume pressure (in your case e.g. 20 or 22 psi)

Differential: Two ways to reach a differential MAP sensor: one MAP sensor with a vented ref. volume. So the atmo pressure acts directly on the measurement device. The other way is an electrical corretion with two absolut pressure sensors.

The possible way to maintain a higher boost is, to give the ECU a higher atmo pressure. I didn`t look at my ECU, so I can`t tell you how to do this, but I think it is a possible way to get higer boost pressures. (I´m thinking of a bleed orfice for boost to this sensor inlet.

Hope it helps you, Andy
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
The other bad news at higher altitudes is that since the air is thinner and creates less friction at the compressor wheel, the compressor is spinning faster and the air being compressed becomes even HOTTER!
This means that of all people, you could benefit from increased intercooler capacity more than use flatlanders (I'm only 65 ft above sea level). Figure about a 3% drop in power for every 1,000 feet or 7% per 1,000 meters. Temperature also has some effect too, but not enough to compensate for altitude.
 

whitebelly

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well i don't know about boost pressure,
but a few weeks ago while i was driving from denver to durango and climbing a few 11,000 foot mountains in between, i noticed a considerable increase in my gas milage compared to here in sea-level new jersey.
 

whitebelly

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yep. i know it's weird, but the same thing happened last year when i took the same trip with my <cough> honda civic.

maybe it's the cleaner air
 

Arizona Mike

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hesh:
Increased mileage at altitude makes perfect sense.

There's less air, and so less air friction.

Chris
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You knucklehead, Did you really say this?
And to even better mpg by reducing the weight of your vehicle just let a few pounds of air out of your tires. Thanks Chris, you made me smile today!
 
M

mickey

Guest
He's talking about aerodynamic factors. ("Wind resistance.") And he's right: There's less of it up here. But I seriously doubt whether the decreased wind resistance makes up for the loss of power and engine efficiency.

-mickey
 

Hesh

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Joined
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Location
La Honda, CA USA
Drag on an object is directly proportional to the density of air. A change in elevation from 0 to 6000 feet (~1818 m) results in about 78% the pressure, and since pressure and density are directly proportional, we have 78% the drag.

This is not to say that we can increase mileage by 22% by driving at altitude. Load on the engine comes in the form of aerodynamic drag, friction due to moving engine parts, friction due to slippage between the tires and road, etc. I.e., air resistance is only part of the sum total of load on the engine, and so the reduction of load is something less than 22%.

A graph of total load, aerodynamic drag being one component of load, vs. engine speed vs. mileage will tell us what actual improvements we would see. To add to the complexity, engine efficiency itself changes as altitude changes.

Not to disagree with you Mickey, but (anecdote warning) my experience shows that any losses in engine efficiency are easily made up for the gains due to reduced drag. I do, with consistency, get better mileage at altitude.

Chris
 

Arizona Mike

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hesh:
Drag on an object is directly proportional to the density of air. A change in elevation from 0 to 6000 feet (~1818 m) results in about 78% the pressure, and since pressure and density are directly proportional, we have 78% the drag.

Chris
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chris, That is a good explanation on your part.
I acknowledge that my knowledge of this theory/fact? Is limited if not none existent
to say the least. Your explanation has me thinking, which is something I don't always do as often as I should.
 
M

mickey

Guest
Whenever I'm trying to wrap my brain around concepts like this I find it useful to carry the argument to an absurd extreme. In this example I'd say to myself: "How much aerodynamic drag would there be with zero barometric pressure? The answer, obviously, is NONE." So it stands to reason that less air pressure means less drag. That's why jet aircraft are fastest at very high altitudes, even though there is less air to feed the engines.

-mickey
 

Drivbiwire

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OK Mickey I am going to really confuse you here.

As airplanes fly higher they go slower, even though they are going faster over the ground, Fact.

How, well it's a fairly simple explanation. Think of it this way. As you go higher the distance between air moleclules is greater or farther apart. Speed in an airplanes is measured in airspeed but more importantly you are measuring the number of molecules that you are passing. So as you go higher the distance between molecules is farther but if you are still passing the same number of molecules per second you are actually going faster, with me so far?

Now as you go higher you eventully run out of horsepower (due to thinner air) and and your speed begins to drop off.

For example we fly at 300 knots indicated. if we are doing 300 at sealevel we are going 300 knots true airspeed. if we are going at 300 knots indicated at 31,000 feet we are going 475 knots true airspeed even though we only show 300 on the "speedometer". but if we go up to 39,000 feet we may only be indicating 250 knots but our true airspeed is still up at 465 +/- a few even though we are passing fewer molecules.

This is where MACH comes into play if we pass enough molecules per second even though we only show 300 knots at a high enough altitude we can actually go through the sound barrier and break every window within a 20 mile area below us, cool huh I mean hot...


...The problem is because of true airspeed we have a lot of friction. This causes an effect called RAM rise. The temperature of the leading edges become hotter because of the speed at which the molecules are striking the airplane. They are hitting the airplane at higher speed it's just that there are not as many so you may not indicate that you are going as fast through the air.

Example-At 80 knots I think the RAM effect is something like 5 degrees increase in temperature. at altitude it's much higher.

Now as for your turbo when it is at sea-level the turbo blades are passing over x number of air molecules. As you go higher such as mount Nebo(sp?) the air molecules are farther apart and as the turbo compressor passes over them the blade is actually going faster through the air causing higher friction and higher heat as a result. Now when you factor in you are compressing these molecules into a higher pressure you get a resulting larger increase in temperature rise due to higher altitude.

more later gotta fly...

DB
 

Hesh

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Location
La Honda, CA USA
Arizona Mike,

I'm happy to hear that the food for thought was tasty :) even if it doesn't change your mind. Good to hear there are open minds out there.

Chris
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
More food for the feast
for once thing, Mickey could benefit from more intercooler capacity than most other TDI'ers, simply due to the very effective action the intercooler adds to his turbodiesel operation where he is (smokin'):

Turbochargers at High Altitude
The Volkswagen TDI engine with it's Garrett Turbocharger is a work of art in more ways than one. It's turbocharger is able to operate under a multitude of conditions ranging from sea level to two miles high and from desert to blizzard conditions. All of these various conditions cause drastic changes in air density caused by differing ambient temperatures and atomspheric pressures. Volkswagen designed this engine to function efficiently under these difficult conditions and this is one of the reasons it is one of the most advanced passenger car motors in the world with over 2 million units in operation.

Turbocharger design and matching is relatively straightforward for most industrial and marine applications due to the limited speed and load ranges required. Matching a turbocharger to an automotive application is much more difficult due to the wide speeds and load variations encountered.

The easiest engine to design a diesel turbocharger for is a stationary one such as for a power plant or in a ship at sea level, its altitude is known and it is selected to operate at a constant rpm under a constant load.

The next most easiest diesel engine for design a turbocharger for is a truck in a mobile application. The compressor is selected to operate under a mostly constant load and at a specific rpm at normal altitudes and normal ambient temperatures. The turbocharger is designed to match the normal operating environment of the truck with sufficient margins designed for surge protection, turbine inlet temperature, turbo speed and boost levels.

Turbocharger operation under changing ambient conditions (extreme barometric pressure and/or temperature environments) introduces additional complications for the manufacturer of both the turbocharger and the engine. Foremost is a reduction of the surge margin (the left hand portion of the compressor map) while still offering partial compensation for reduced mass air inlet density at higher altitude levels. As air density and air mass flow rate are reduced, the turbine inlet temperature will rise due to the richer air-fuel mixture resulting. This means that the ratio of compressor to turbine pressure ratios will increase. This pressure ratio increase offsets the reduction in air inlet density at higher altitudes in a turbocharged diesel engine. Also, as the ambient temperature falls, the expansion ratio of the turbine increases, raising the compressor ratio as long as the turbine inlet pressure does not fall at the same rate as the ambient pressure. An increase in ambient temperature has an undesirable effect on the turbine to compressor energy balance to the effect that the turbine will amplify this effect to a change in air flow rate. Low ambient temperatures reduce the required compressor power, so boost rises, which may result in compressor surge.

Selection of a turbocharger compressor wheel is mostly a matter of ensuring a sufficient surge margin while maintaining that the engines operation at both maximum torque and maximum power occur
at reasonable compressor speeds and efficiencies. A good compressor wheel with the correct trim will function clear of the surge line and lie in an area of high operational efficiency.

Wide variations in ambient conditions of a turbocharged diesel engine can lead to problems due to compressor surge, excessive cylinder pressures, turbine inlet temperatures, turbocharger speed, and smoke emissions. Here a couple of examples:

If air mass flow rate and compressor pressure ratio changes, movement across the operation map of the compressor will be accompanied by changes in efficiency. It follows that a similar engine at sea-level will not necessarily perform comparatively at high altitudes. Detailed and rigorous turbine and compressor maps are required to predict the effect of high altitudes and low temperatures on turbochargers in contrast to sea-level operation. A simpler approach is to simply compare the turbocharged engines operation at a constant altitude in either very hot or very cold conditions as this approach emulates the effects of high altitude operation.

At high ambient temperature, the limiting factor in the operation of a turbocharged diesel engine is smoke emission, due to the reduced air flow. The second and third limiting factors are turbine inlet and exhaust valve temperatures or the thermal loading of the engine in its entirety. Conversely, at low ambient temperatures, compressor surge (due to a very high pressure ratio) or maximum cylinder pressure will be the limiting factor. The limitation of the turbocharged diesel engine will be to what extent fueling must be reduced to permit reliable operation or excess smoke emission. Compared to a naturally aspirated diesel engine, the turbocharged diesel engine offers partial compensation of the air inlet density reduction at altitude for the above mentioned factors and therefore is not affected to the extent that a naturally aspirated engine is.

The effect of high altitude on a turbocharged diesel at full power shows that although the absolute inlet manifold pressure reduces with high altitude, the fall-off is slower than that of ambient temperature. Turbocharger speed increases due to the increase in turbine inlet temperature and expansion ratio up to a point. This point is limited by the thermal limits and the maximum permissible turbocharger speed, especially the latter. The movement toward surge on the compressor map will be greatest for a non-intercooled engine, since the post boost air mass density will be reduced considerably due to higher temperatures.

If a turbocharged diesel engine is designed for operation at sea-level and moved to higher altitudes without being rematched for operation at higher levels, then initially smoke emission, then turbocharger speed, and then inlet temperatures will be the factors governing the reduction in fuel input.

The problem of overspeeding the turbocharger and coping with excessively high cylinder pressures becomes more prominent when the turbocharged diesel engines operates over a very wide speed range (1,000 to 5,000 rpm instead of 1,000 to 2,200 rpm) as is the
case in the Volkswagen TDI passenger car. This has been taken into effect in the A3 TDI's Garrett GT15 turbo by the use of wastegate to shunt part of the exhaust gas flow past the turbine and simultaneously increase the exhaust flow area to prevent build up of exhaust back pressure into the cylinders. This reduces both turbine work and effective compressor boost pressures, while maintaining good engine power and fuel economy without deterioration at higher rpm operation.

With the development of the Garrett VNT15 variable nozzle turbocharger for the Volkswagen TDI turbodiesel engine many of these concerns have been addressed and resolved. However this could not have been completed without the electronic control using modern computerized software alogrithims to keep the turbine and compressor operating in unison. In fact the Garrett VNT turbos were first designed and created over 15 years ago, however now they are first being utilized in modern passenger car turbodiesels specifically due to the simultaneous development of the computer hardware and software to allow the control of these powerful turbochargers under a wide variety of applications. The development of the BOSCH VE VP 37 rotary distributor microprocessor fuel injection pump and its associated equipment also has allowed additional freedom in the fuel delivery over the speed range of the engine to match the VNT turbocharger operation. The VNT's turbocharger operation has been closely linked with the entire fuel system and must maintain this match throughout its entire operation by maintaining optimum fuel injection rates, extremely high fuel pressure rates, extremely precise nozzle sizes, and specific combustion chamber swirl. The factor that is the most restrictive when trying to achieve a desirable torque characteristic with the VNT turbo is the low speed smoke limit. This should be no big surprise since it is normal for boost pressure to rise with engine speed as a result of the exhaust flow rate increase of the turbine. The smoke limit is caused by insufficient boost pressure, and hence air flow, at low engine speeds. In order that the TDI engine is to make an effective torque curve, the fuel delivery (per cycle) is held relatively constant over the speed range while the VNT successfully raises the boost effectively at very low engine speeds. This is achieved by the increased A/R ratio that is a function of the nozzle opening on the VNT turbine inlet so that the thermodynamic availability of exhaust energy delivered to the turbine, ie its specific available energy, has been increased at both low speed and high speed operation. By keeping the fuel delivery relatively unchanged while the turbine energy is increasing and boost pressure is increasing, it weakens the air-fuel ratio and reduces low speed smoke. This has been the dream of turbocharger engineers for decades! Low exhaust smoke, low fuel consumption, and high BMEP are ideal.

Now what does all this mean to us as VW TDI performance addicts? First, a super clean high flow air filter is absolutely essential to keep the turbocharger operating in its maximum effective rate zone on the compressor map. As much as a 20% decrease in air mass flow into the air intake due to an air filter restriction, especially at higher altitudes, would push the compressor towards the surge line and decrease its efficiency tremendously. A clean
high flow air filter is a must. A Garrett VNT15 turbocharger on a Volkswagen TDI engine simply cannot tolerate a dirty air filter or otherwise compromised air intake mass.

Second, due to the very effective air-air intercooler that is standard on the VW TDI, a reduction in compressor post-boost air temperature down to 30-40 degrees F. above ambient is outstanding. This intercooler is highly effective in reducing the intake air temp and increasing the intake air density, while at the same time reducing peak combustion chamber temperatures, exhaust valve temperatures, and exhaust gas temperatures. Volkswagen not only did an excellent job designing this air-air turbocharger intercooler for high performance and long engine life, it also decreases NOx production about 30% as well. Only when the turbocharger boost level is raised above the OEM levels is this intercooler capacity diminished. While a boost from OEM 13 PSI to about 16 PSI using a Wetterauer Software EPROM is acceptable at all temperatures and altitudes, a boost above the 16 PSI level begins to raise the compressor air temperature levels straining the capacity of the OEM intercooler. In fact, an intercooler contaminated with oil and sludge build-up from lack of cleaning can easily decrease the efficiency of the TDI's OEM intercooler 40-50% with a resultant rise in intake air temperature, lowered fuel economy, higher engine temperatures, and long term thermal stress on the entire engine, all NOT GOOD. In addition, torque and horsepower levels are directly diminished as well.

Third, fuel quality becomes even more essential for good reliable operation at higher levels of either performance or altitude. Therefore, a 50 cetane fuel level should be utilized as a minimum in order to effectively reduce combustion lag, combustion chamber pressure peaks, low speed smoke limits, and operational thermal stress on the VW TDI turbodiesel engine under load.

Fourth, the addition of a Techtonics Tuning turbo exhaust system will increase the turbocharger boost pressure by increasing the exhaust mass air flow and reducing backpressure into the combustion chamber for more effective high rpm operation. Stronger torque levels at lower rpms are due to more heat and air mass passing through the turbine.

The take home message is that the Garrett VNT15 turbine and compressor do an outstanding job under a wide variety of conditions attendant on the fact that the ECU controls the fuel and turbo pressure levels according to ambient temperatures and altitudes up to 10,000 feet via internal MAF fuel maps, MAP boost pressure maps, IAT intake air temperature maps, and ambient barometric determinations . The higher you are above sea level, the more difficult it is to produce the same level of work, with increase attendant risks to asking for higher performance. Pay attention to the four main restrictions to TDI turbo power at altitude listed above to keep ahead of the game and the competition!
 

imahaare

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Location
cripple creek, colorado
TDI
2004 jetta sports wagon
drag

I thought I'd throw this out. Its just observation.

I have this garage queen (my problem) BMW K1200 LT. Yeah - the "flying brick". I have had it below 6500 feet maybe once. It regurlary gets 52+/- miles per gallon. Thats the average and I run it down hill 2700 feet and then up hill 2700 feet each day its not raining or snowing or below 52 degrees F. (Oh man! You roll outta here at 52 and run down the pass to where it gets really snakey and the cold air has flowed down to the snakes and pooled there. You can watch the air temp drop 10 degrees. And you gotta survive that for 30 miles.)

All the chatter from the sea level riders give mileage numbers in the 40s.
So, yeah. I'd say the drag here is less. While the power is less the amount of power used to overcome drag is less.
 

Mongler98

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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
I never thought I would see the day when I witnessed a newb resurrect a 20+ year old thread. But here it is boys.
 

GlowBugTDI

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2001 Beetle GLS TDI (BIODSL). 01 original Glow Bug TDI (sold)
Few months back I came across a thread that hadn't been touched since 1996 or 1998. I can't remember....

I kind of thought about bringing it back just because I needed a question answered but the thread itself ended up answering the question for me so I didn't. Plus I figured it would make a lot of people mad for whatever reason that it does lol.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
 
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