CR engine HPFP analysis

jbright

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Location
Indianapolis
TDI
2009 Jetta DSG
Thanks for this. I just realized we have these in the northern part of the state too (Ft. Wayne, Angola, Fremont, Warsaw), so I'm going to give it a try. Tom
There's a TDI Club member who's in the oil business who PMed me and said he knows the guys who started this company. They are all originally from big oil and he had nothing but good things to say about CountryMark. Just the fact that they posted a spec sheet on their premium diesel is pretty groundbreaking, the American entrepreneurial spirit at it's best. Their diesel is a little more per gallon but at least you know you are putting money in the pockets of your neighbors, and, hopefully, doing good things for your TDI as well.
__________________
 

aja8888

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Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
There's a TDI Club member who's in the oil business who PMed me and said he knows the guys who started this company. They are all originally from big oil and he had nothing but good things to say about CountryMark. Just the fact that they posted a spec sheet on their premium diesel is pretty groundbreaking, the American entrepreneurial spirit at it's best. Their diesel is a little more per gallon but at least you know you are putting money in the pockets of your neighbors, and, hopefully, doing good things for your TDI as well.
__________________
That was me who PM'd you. The CountryMark refinery is a COOP and has been around for a good while. They recently bought all the crude oil production from Core Minerals Operating, LLC. Core has been one of my clients for years and are back in the acquisition mode (buying up private production wells). Both Core and CountryMark are in southern Indiana.

Now that CountryMark has everything from crude oil drilling/production, pipelines, refining, and distribution, they are truly "mine to consumer" so to say. Plus, they are independently owned and all U.S.

It doesn't get any better than this.;)
 

JSWTDIPilot

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Location
Weschester, NY
TDI
2010 JSW TDI
Do you have any evidence that paying 10-15 cents more for "higher cetane" provides better fuel economy to the extent that the additonal cost of the higher cetane fuel offsets the 10 - 15 cent additional cost. I think you will find that the btu content of the fuel is the primary determinant of fuel economy not cetane. I personally have not seen any difference in fuel economy by increasing cetane levels. Around here 10 cents is about a 3.5% premium to pay.

Also, I would hope that the premium diesel at 10-15 cents per gallon more would have a lubricity level of 460 or less. If not then, I don't see any benefit in buying premium diesel. For me, to increase lubricity it's actually cheaper to add one quart of biodiesel per fillup than buy premium diesel since B99 currently runs 14 cents per gallon less than ULSD.

All Chevron stations around here are about 3-5 cents per gallon higher than BP, Shell, and the supermarket/convienence store chains and are not labeled premium diesel.
I don't have any of my own evidence but after reading a sticky article out of this Forum, I use premium diesel or diesel that has higher cetane than stock. It makes sense and thats why I do it. Looking at my fuelly account, I'm somewhere in the top quarter of JSW TDIs who participate. Seems fair enough.

"2) Run a good quality fuel. In the west Chevron seems to by far bring the best numbers. A poor quality fuel will lower MPG by up to 5. Just because it's a truck stop it usually means you are putting crap in your tank (especially Flying J). In the midwest BP/Amoco are great--both BP and Chevron have stated that they won't have Cetane under 49, which is what our cars need. If you're filling with crappy fuel run an additive. Anything up to B20 won't really have an effect on your mileage. B100 will lower it by ~5 MPG. These numbers are taken with over 150,000 miles of careful calculations over the course of many years, different cars, and different seasons.
Example: If you get 40 MPG from Flying J at $4.25/gallon, and 45 MPG from Chevron/BP at $4.49/gallon, you are paying $.10625/mile with the J, and $.09978/mile with the higher quality fuel. (And if you find a quality station next to a truck stop often the difference in price is less than $.05/gallon!) You actually save $64 just in fuel over the course of 10,000 miles by buying the more expensive fuel. This says nothing for what you might save in maintenance (injection pump and the rest of the fuel system) over the course of time. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's good. I've called lots of corporate offices and have numbers on the following cetane levels*** (See end of post)"

Source: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=200694

Someone pointed out that higher Cetane doesn't always mean better lubricity or better fuel. Yes, they are correct. It doesn't always mean that.

Take it as you may, fuel however you'd like to fuel. I'll use the higher Cetane stuff.

I also chose to fill-up at premium diesel stations since we have a lack of biodiesel up here in the NYC area. The only stations that sell Bio are 30-40 cents costlier that what I pay for and only sell B20. I would try it, except I want to keep my fuel at B5 and below.
 

St.Hubbins

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Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Location
Nashville
TDI
'10 Golf, DSG / '11 A3, DSG (both went buyback) - '15 GSW SE
funny, didn't figure you for the lazy type!

no - i wouldn't like to carry fuel around in my hatch. what makes sense to me is putting 3 gallons B20 on an empty tank, then reaching for the D2 pump to mix that all in (along with 4 oz. PS white, if i feel like it) to give me a full tank of just under B5.

don't like the D2 they sell at the B20 station? just get the bio there and take it on over to your "premium" diesel spot to top off.

or don't bother with bio-D at all, and ask yourself "Do i feel lucky?" ;)
 

dzcad90

Rolex & gin
Joined
Mar 15, 1999
Location
Joliet, IL USA
TDI
Jetta - 97 (RIP), '03 (Sold), '09
I cleaned up a few posts on this thread as they were getting too personal and OT. I think this thread serves as a good repository of information, "and I aims ta keep it
that way".
 

jbright

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Location
Indianapolis
TDI
2009 Jetta DSG
That was me who PM'd you. The CountryMark refinery is a COOP and has been around for a good while. They recently bought all the crude oil production from Core Minerals Operating, LLC. Core has been one of my clients for years and are back in the acquisition mode (buying up private production wells). Both Core and CountryMark are in southern Indiana.

Now that CountryMark has everything from crude oil drilling/production, pipelines, refining, and distribution, they are truly "mine to consumer" so to say. Plus, they are independently owned and all U.S.

It doesn't get any better than this.;)
Thanks, aja. It's good to have such a positive recommendation from someone who knows what he's talking about.
 

St.Hubbins

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Location
Nashville
TDI
'10 Golf, DSG / '11 A3, DSG (both went buyback) - '15 GSW SE
aw, c'mon! personal? seemed like we were all trying to be helpful and have a bit of good clean fun at the same time.

now the Eastwood quotes just look out of place, and that excellent Dirty Harry graphic is lost!:(
 

Jet mech

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Louisville, KY
TDI
2010 JSW
So after reading thru this thread, does eveyone agree that B5 is the best for our TDIs and if you can find B5 then you dont need to add any fuel additive? Yes im a newbie...:)
 

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
I don't have any of my own evidence but after reading a sticky article out of this Forum, I use premium diesel or diesel that has higher cetane than stock. It makes sense and thats why I do it. Looking at my fuelly account, I'm somewhere in the top quarter of JSW TDIs who participate. Seems fair enough.

"2) Run a good quality fuel. In the west Chevron seems to by far bring the best numbers. A poor quality fuel will lower MPG by up to 5. Just because it's a truck stop it usually means you are putting crap in your tank (especially Flying J). In the midwest BP/Amoco are great--both BP and Chevron have stated that they won't have Cetane under 49, which is what our cars need. If you're filling with crappy fuel run an additive. Anything up to B20 won't really have an effect on your mileage. B100 will lower it by ~5 MPG. These numbers are taken with over 150,000 miles of careful calculations over the course of many years, different cars, and different seasons.
Example: If you get 40 MPG from Flying J at $4.25/gallon, and 45 MPG from Chevron/BP at $4.49/gallon, you are paying $.10625/mile with the J, and $.09978/mile with the higher quality fuel. (And if you find a quality station next to a truck stop often the difference in price is less than $.05/gallon!) You actually save $64 just in fuel over the course of 10,000 miles by buying the more expensive fuel. This says nothing for what you might save in maintenance (injection pump and the rest of the fuel system) over the course of time. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's good. I've called lots of corporate offices and have numbers on the following cetane levels*** (See end of post)"

Source: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=200694

Someone pointed out that higher Cetane doesn't always mean better lubricity or better fuel. Yes, they are correct. It doesn't always mean that.

Take it as you may, fuel however you'd like to fuel. I'll use the higher Cetane stuff.

I also chose to fill-up at premium diesel stations since we have a lack of biodiesel up here in the NYC area. The only stations that sell Bio are 30-40 cents costlier that what I pay for and only sell B20. I would try it, except I want to keep my fuel at B5 and below.
The example is not empirical evidence - simply a calculation. I have read that thread and there is really no hard data. The cetane numbers for the Brands stating 40 are simply minimum requirements. The high numbers are not backed up by spec sheets. I think you'll find that virtually all "regular" diesel in a region will be about the same cetane level - usually between 42 - 45 from test sample data I've seen. Remember 40 is the specification not the target level. The CR TDIs does not need a 49 cetane fuel. Also, what constitutes "poor" quality versus "good" quality fuel. Where's the data in that thread other than subjective opinion.

The only point I'm trying to make is that we really don't know what the net benefits are for paying 10-15 cents more for supposedly "better/premium" diesel. We really don't know how much lubricity is lowered or if the additive package is better. Other than CountryMark, I'm not aware of any major fuel marketer that provides the specifications for their premium fuel.

So, until such time as the fuel marketers supply a specification like CountryMark there is no guarantee what one is getting for the 10-15 cent higher price. IMHO, if biodiesel is not available in an area, I'd put an additive in each tank to improve lubricity rather than relying on the "premium" diesel to contain sufficient lubricity additives. My target lubricity is a wear scar of < 400 microns which is even lower than CountryMark's spec. In addition to a quart of B99 per fillup, I do add about 4 ounces of PS Diesel Kleen primarily for its cleaning abilities. IIRC, one major brand uses Diesel Kleen as is stated on their pumps.

I know what I'm paying for and why I'm paying for it.;)
 

tdiatlast

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
Fort Worth, Texas
TDI
2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
So after reading thru this thread, does eveyone agree that B5 is the best for our TDIs and if you can find B5 then you dont need to add any fuel additive? Yes im a newbie...:)
Isn't the jury still out on bio and possible water suspension/retention? Several theories have been posted.
 

jbright

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Location
Indianapolis
TDI
2009 Jetta DSG
Rod Bearing posted this on another thread recently:

What I keep hearing is the bio diesel is getting hot enough in an HPFP system to cause some degree of reverse refining where fatty acids and alcohol compounds are released into the system as separate compounds. Bio diesel is also washed with water as a part of it's manufacture process. It is well known that bio diesel is prone to retain some water. Hence it can become a trojan horse in these systems in the right circumstances.

That is why several months ago I asked if it was rust or other compounds from bio diesel breakdown that we're seeing in the filter cans..
__________________
 

Jet mech

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Louisville, KY
TDI
2010 JSW
No, B5 is overkill. (lubrication) gains from going to biodiesel level off once you hit B2. You don't gain a lot going to B5, B20, etc.

B2 is also a nice safe spot when premixing, in case your fuel ends up already containing bio. You won't be going over as much.

edit: see page 3: http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/Lubricity.PDF
Thanks for the info and the link...it was very interesting.

I found and place near me that sells B20 and after talking with the owner of the gas station he said that currently the B20 is made with animal fat and sometimes he gets some made with soybean oil. Does it matter what its made with?
I guess i need to know what i should do to mix the correct amount of B20 with regular diesel fuel. Anyone have a formula they can suggest so i can get the correct amount? I figure i would just keep 5 gallons of B20 in the garage for mixing.

TIA
 

Marlyece

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Location
Downers Grove, IL
TDI
2010 Golf TDI DSG
Thanks for the info and the link...it was very interesting.

I found and place near me that sells B20 and after talking with the owner of the gas station he said that currently the B20 is made with animal fat and sometimes he gets some made with soybean oil. Does it matter what its made with?
I guess i need to know what i should do to mix the correct amount of B20 with regular diesel fuel. Anyone have a formula they can suggest so i can get the correct amount? I figure i would just keep 5 gallons of B20 in the garage for mixing.

TIA
5 quarts of B20 per tank full of D2 will get you B2. I've heard soy is best but either should suffice.
 

tdiatlast

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
Fort Worth, Texas
TDI
2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
...after talking with the owner of the gas station he said that currently the B20 is made with animal fat and sometimes he gets some made with soybean oil. Does it matter what its made with?
Am I the only one that gets a little worried about this statement? I know that crude dino, before refinement, isn't a constant either, but really. This scares me. Granted, I don't know very much about the whole refining process (should have paid more attention to my late uncle, who worked 40+ years for BP, helping to design their US refineries!)

Anybody remember the old auto parts ad: "Part is parts!" implying that it really doesn't matter where you buy your auto parts...they're all the same? Of course, the ad was de-bunking the theory, and asserting that indeed it DOES matter where you buy your parts.

Should it matter what type of fresh organic matter goes into bio-diesel?
 

ruking

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
San Jose area, CA
TDI
2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
The use of B (whatever, 5,10,20, 100) and additives such as Power Service Diesel KLEEN (gray container) might indeed be problematic. Yet the use of Power Service Diesel KLEEN might be the lesser of 2 evils and less costly.

Reading a lot in passing, opaquely, it would appear that VW was forced into accepting B5. (in writing anyway) They certainly are adamantly against anything over. As a result, I do NOT use B anything. On the other hand, they do NOT and have never recommend/ed additives. Even as VW dealerships have sold additives for ... years.

FF to the 09/10/11 MY's. So to me, VW/Bosch KNEW what the standards were and what they would evolve TO, WAY before they even designed the 09 UP HPFP pump. They want to sound like they did not use HPFP's in anything less than 09 TDI's (what a CROCK) One can only surmise they purposely selected the pump design that had a higher probablity of failure, GIVEN the standards. I say ...BAD call !!!! Indeed it is not an issue if VW Bosch just fixes the ones that do fail (on their nickel).

So as the stop gap measure, additives seem to offer a solution. I have scanned the HPFP failure threads and not one of them seem to have failed that used an additive. So PLEASE correct me if I am wrong. I would not want to pass on bad information.

The numbers on PSDK are 80 oz @ $15 per container(WalMart?). It is advertised to treat 250 gal of D2 fuel or .06 cents a gal!!?? (dilution rate 400 to 1) Real world dilution: 3.2 oz per 10 gals (fill) or .19 cents or .0192 cents per gal.

As stated in other posts, so called "premium" diesel and B (whatever) are sold at far higher % premiums !!!! This would be a no brainer for me.
 
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tdiatlast

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Location
Fort Worth, Texas
TDI
2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
... Indeed it is not an issue if VW Bosch just fixes the ones that do fail (on their nickel)...QUOTE]

You don't really mean that, do you? It's still taking out the entire fuel system, $9k+. Fast forward to a failure at 150k miles: who's going to put that kind of money into their vehicle, worth less than that?

I assume you just said that in passing...
 

St.Hubbins

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Nashville
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'10 Golf, DSG / '11 A3, DSG (both went buyback) - '15 GSW SE
The use of B (whatever, 5,10,20, 100) and additives such as Power Service Diesel KLEEN (gray container) might indeed be problematic. Yet the use of Power Service Diesel KLEEN might be the lesser of 2 evils and less costly.
care to elaborate for us?
 

mysql

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Jan 19, 2010
Location
United States
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Jetta wagon
Given that various levels of bio is required in D2 for many states, if your additive cannot deal with bio, you shouldn't be using it.
 

MostroDiesel

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North Haven, CT and Brooklyn, NY
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2012 Passat Gasser VR6; (Sold and missed) 09 JSW DSG Pano Blue Graphite Build Date 05/09
I have scanned the HPFP failure threads and not one of them seem to have failed that used an additive. So PLEASE correct me if I am wrong. I would not want to pass on bad information.
Indeed there have been a few failures in cars whose owners used additives. It's in one or more of the threads someplace; I'm at work now so I can't look for them.

Me personally, I'm not using any additives at the moment, in due deference to the official recommendation against them in my operator's manual. I may revisit that when the powertrain warranty is out. In the meantime, consider me a guinea pig!
 

mysql

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Location
United States
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Jetta wagon
MostroDiesel, what about the situation where you're avoiding additives till out of warranty, causing your HPFP to wear prematurely. Causing failure at 80,000 miles?

I think you really need to figure out which side of the bandwagon you are on in terms of additives, and stick with it from the get-go.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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ARIZONA
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Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
Indeed there have been a few failures in cars whose owners used additives. It's in one or more of the threads someplace; I'm at work now so I can't look for them.

Me personally, I'm not using any additives at the moment, in due deference to the official recommendation against them in my operator's manual. I may revisit that when the powertrain warranty is out. In the meantime, consider me a guinea pig!
MostroDiesel, what are you defering to???? I suggest you re-read the owner's manual as I doubt you will find any such "official recommendation" against the use of additives. Unless you have a different owner's manual than me and others, I think you will find that it is silent on using additives in the CR.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
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TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
Unless you have a different owner's manual than me and others, I think you will find that it is silent on using additives in the CR.
I agree, the owner's manual is silent on using additives. It does mention that additives are not required and not recommended. "Not recommended" is not necessarily the same thing as "recommending against". "Not recommended" can simply mean having not having an opinion one way or the other. I know I'm getting into semantics but you get the idea. One thing I recall is the exact same statements about additives also appears in the owner's manual in older TDIs. The OM in my 05 PD JWagen and 02 Golf (recently sold, not mine anymore) have the same general statements about additives.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
I agree, the owner's manual is silent on using additives. It does mention that additives are not required and not recommended. "Not recommended" is not necessarily the same thing as "recommending against". "Not recommended" can simply mean having not having an opinion one way or the other. I know I'm getting into semantics but you get the idea. One thing I recall is the exact same statements about additives also appears in the owner's manual in older TDIs. The OM in my 05 PD JWagen and 02 Golf (recently sold, not mine anymore) have the same general statements about additives.
I don't believe you will find the words "additives are not required and not recommended" or any such similar words in the manual. The manual is truly silent on diesel additives.

Maybe you are recalling emails sent by VW Customer Care on using additives. Here's a post with my take on these emails.
 

ronaldleemhuis

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2010
Location
Erie, PA
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI
Note: I accidentally posted this message in another thread where it did not belong, so I moved it here.


I'm getting the impression that regardless of what materials and mechanical factors are at play in the HPFP failures, a common element is greatly accelerated wear on the roller and cam. The pictures that oilhammer posted suggested that the wear was along the entire length of the roller, so any rotation problem can't be the whole story. A Bosch publication from 2003 on wear rates vs. lubricity suggests that wear rates can be multiplied easily by a factor of 100 or so by using fuel with high (i.e. poor) HFRR lubricity scores. So whatever design flaws may be present, they are exaggerated by fuel with poor lubricity. A part that should last 400,000 miles may last 4000 miles if the wear rate is multiplied by a factor of 100.

I am very happy that I bought my Jetta TDI 6 wks after Pennsylvania mandated 2% biodiesel. This means that every tank of fuel since it arrived at the dealer should have an ideal lubricity in the 250-300 HFRR range. It will be illuminating to see how the failures pan out in states with biodiesel mandates vs. those without.

As a lay person, I plan to continue to buy only B2 and always from the same refinery-owned distributors (United Refining) and keep receipts of all purchases. I will resist the urge to drive frequently at high rpms.

If I were in a non-biodiesel state, I'd be looking for B99 or B100 to use as a lubricity additive to make the equivalent of B2.
 

St.Hubbins

Veteran Member
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Mar 16, 2010
Location
Nashville
TDI
'10 Golf, DSG / '11 A3, DSG (both went buyback) - '15 GSW SE
Given that various levels of bio is required in D2 for many states, if your additive cannot deal with bio, you shouldn't be using it.
still waiting to hear more from ruking (or anyone) on how bio + additives = bad news.

i've certainly read nothing from Power Service suggesting it should not be used in conjunction with bio. am i missing something?
 

sgoldste01

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Webster, NY
TDI
None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
If I were in a non-biodiesel state, I'd be looking for B99 or B100 to use as a lubricity additive to make the equivalent of B2.
+1. That's exactly what I'm doing--adding 1 qt of B100 to each tankful, plus 4 oz of Power Service Diesel Kleen.
 

fastalan

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Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Location
Richmond BC
TDI
2010 Golf TDI Wagon
Ok guys, here's the facts on the failure of the pump in the labeled photos in the first post. This car was in my shop. The customer broke down a few blocks from the gas station after filling up. Upon initial inspection we opened the fuel filter canister and found no metal. The fuel was cloudy and white in color. It smelled like turpentine but not gasoline. The fuel felt oily to the touch. We drained the tank, cleaned out the lines, added fresh diesel and primed the system. The vehicle seemed to run ok so we released the vehicle to the customer but warned him of possible future problems. We also gave him a sample of the fuel. I was worried about the low pressure fault it had when it came in. The next day the car returned on a hook just as I feared. The fuel canister had metal in it this time. The fuel sample we gave the customer was still cloudy but had developed water droplets on the bottom of the jar. I can tell everyone for sure that this pump failed from contaminated fuel. Lesson learned, next car I find with no metal but suspect fuel, I will pull the piston out of the pump and inspect the roller for damage.

The thread started by KNOWLEDGE where his fuel canister was rusted and we found rust in his tank did not need a complete fuel system. On his car we found the rust by pure luck. We were chasing down a drivability concern which ended up being the 5 volt signal wire on the charge pressure sensor rubbing on the a/c pipe on the compressor. It was dumb luck that we opened the canister and found rust.We found no contaminated fuel. We cleaned the tank, replaced the lift pump and fuel canister . The car has been running fine to this day.
The customer broke down a few blocks from the gas station after filling up.
 
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