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VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) This is a general discussion about A4/MkIV Jetta (99.5-~2005), Golf(99.5-2006), and New Beetle(98-2006). Both VE and PD engines are covered here.

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Old August 15th, 2018, 19:39   #16
eddieleephd
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I call timing retarded.
Glow plugs allow enough heat to ignite the fuel.

I recommend looking at the pump bolts and seeing if you have a lot of room on either side of the oblong holes for timing.

If they're off one way center them up and try starting it then.

If the bolts were loose enough to move it wouldn't start.

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Old August 16th, 2018, 03:22   #17
oilhammer
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The OP needs a scan tool. Period. Can't properly see what DTCs are present, can't see ANY data, can't check/verify the ECU is getting the correct inputs, can't check/verify timing, can't do a whole lot of anything.

VCDS is CHEAP. Any old PC will work it, you can find brand new cheapo laptops for $300, you can find used ones for half that. I am running it on a 12+ year old Asus Eee PC that was $220 brand new, could probably find one for $50 now.

If you can't, or won't, get the proper tools, then just take the car to someone that does.
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Old August 16th, 2018, 08:34   #18
Ivoskis
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Thanks Jettawreck. ( how DO you come up with such names??? ) It is quite possible
that both you and Oilhammer are totally correct. Trouble is my $40 code scanner did
not help me very much and I really do not know at this point how to fiddle with the
pump timing short of rotating the pulley vs a fixed TDC on crankshaft.

Not sure if the fuel pump is locked in mechanically or can be advanced/retarded via software?

Last edited by Ivoskis; August 16th, 2018 at 08:36. Reason: format
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Old August 16th, 2018, 08:40   #19
BobnOH
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Yes they are, but it is the interweb, you'll need to track down your issue using the advice.
And yes you can adjust timing using VCDS (or equal), guessing most don't. But you're getting ahead of yourself.
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Old August 16th, 2018, 11:22   #20
Ivoskis
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OK, I get it. Scan tool, then the manual on how to use it etc. Best to take it
to someone who has that learning curve behind him already.

Checking the 3-bolt orientation in the pump seems the quickest and easiest
fix to me at this point to get things into the ballpark. ( thanks eddilee and bob....OH and others for all your help ) The car sits at an off-grid location right now with very poor cell/web contact but I will let you know when I can get back to it and try some things.
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Old August 16th, 2018, 18:35   #21
jettawreck
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Not just a generic scan tool. If you are going to own VW (perhaps especially a TDI) and work on things like injection timing it's almost hopeless to not have VCDS. The timing graph makes it so easy. The logs, the adaptations, etc, etc. It's not just for reading codes.
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Old August 16th, 2018, 18:50   #22
jettawreck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivoskis View Post
Thanks Jettawreck. ( how DO you come up with such names??? ) It is quite possible
that both you and Oilhammer are totally correct. Trouble is my $40 code scanner did
not help me very much and I really do not know at this point how to fiddle with the
pump timing short of rotating the pulley vs a fixed TDC on crankshaft.

Not sure if the fuel pump is locked in mechanically or can be advanced/retarded via software?
Well, the first TDI I bought was a 2001 Jetta. It was only a couple years old w/33k miles. Prior owner had rolled it into a ditch and it was pretty well wrecked. Body damage in multiple places and it turned out the engine was ruined when the front center engine mount broke and derailed the TB and also broke a sizable piece out of the engine block all the way up to the bottom of the head. The damaged engine is my avatar pic.
It was THE jettawreck!!
Replacement engine, replacement hood, grille, fenders and plenty of bodywork. Live and learn.
Still have and drive it.

You don't want to just start randomly moving the IP sprocket. Tiny increment of movement makes a huge amount of timing change to the point where it won't start/run at all. Really need to know where it is at before you start adjusting and how to get back if needed.
Injection timing needs to be set mechanically before making any software adaptation changes as the mechanical (static) timing is what the engine uses to start up on. After it's actually running the electronics from the ECU start making adjustments.
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2001 Jetta TDI GLS Silver-current driver (salvage)permanently vented-Panzer Plate-Sprint 520s-ScanGauge-CheckTemp III-ZeroStart heater-CAT 2 filter
2003 Jetta GLS Black w/leather (New Project Car) fixer-upper w/broken TB
2004 Cadillac SLS (wife's)
1999 GMC Suburban (It's MN-you need one)
197? Shibura 2cyl diesel 4WD tractor-loader/brushhog (very handy unit)
196? International TD340 Dozer-w/Drott 4-in-1 bucket/back ripper attachment

Last edited by jettawreck; August 16th, 2018 at 18:52.
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Old August 17th, 2018, 10:44   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivoskis View Post
The compression after the head xchange I measured at about 380psi, which seems to be about in the ballpark for a like 180k engine with just ground in valves that have not had a chance to fully seat yet. ( guessing here mostly and I only tested #one cylinder, just to see if I could get #1 firing with a hot glowplug. )
[some deleted]
Not all the hoses of air filter etc are on and this may not help that ECU to diagnose it all fully. Ck engine light I believe is also still on.
A bit more info please. Maybe I missed some.

Did the car run at all after the head change?

Why was it changed? Maintenance or belt problem?

In the clear fuel line going to the injector pump do you see a small air bubble at the highest point?

Crack the fuel lines at the injectors loose and have someone crank the engine.
Does fuel come out?
Have a few rags wrapped around the area.

Before shutting the car off scan for codes (even with your code reader)
Post the codes.
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Old August 17th, 2018, 11:24   #24
Ivoskis
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Good info there, thank you so much! Yes, I did suck the fuel thru the pump with a hand vacuum pump until I thought I had cleared everything. Also tested that it pumped fuel by cracking the #1 union nut to the injector. My lines are totally web covered so no bubbles are visible.

The turbo failed originally and then I failed to realise that metal junk had gone into the head at that time. Exchanged the turbo ok but very little power and then realized the camshaft was seizing up. That's when a whole Chinese head assembly went in with a new gasket ( earlier posts from 2014, and yes, the car stood idle that long! )


That is the history then. New TB with the head and I tried to match up the old timing as much as I could but it is hard to do. One thought was changing the idler roller diameter with some tape, as that would also change the pump timing by effectively shortening the belt but this then starts to become a science project. It might show incremental improvements though but may be hard to measure.

The CD I got with a supposedly VAG lookalike diagnostic program never really worked out for me, but I can see the value for having a working one. Needless to say I have many other projects going on and travel a lot plus a sailboat with two diesel engines, so I try to keep things simple. At 71 I don't want to have to learn too many new tricks all at once.

Last edited by Ivoskis; August 17th, 2018 at 11:28. Reason: format
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Old August 17th, 2018, 14:42   #25
Genesis
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NO NO NO NO NO to any of that.

First, by hand roll the engine over to the TDC mark in the bellhousing with a wrench. Jam a screwdriver in there to make very sure it does NOT move. Remove the vacuum pump (and valve cover if you have the old style lock plate) and see if the lock plate goes in. If it doesn't STOP. Note that if this check is off more than ~7 degrees of crank rotation or so you HAVE had valve contact and you're in serious trouble. BTW if this check (crank/cam) is off "a bit" post below and I'll tell you what you have to do to fix it PROPERLY, but if it IS off you had BETTER NOT be off by more than that 7 degrees -- because if you are then you're set up to drop a valve a few thousand miles from now and that'll be the end of your fun.

Let's assume that's NOT the case and the cam and crank relationship is bang-on.

Leave the lock plate and crank locked and see if the pin (for the IP) goes in. If it doesn't then leave the other two locked and FIX THAT (three bolts on the IP sprocket; careful, you only need to move it a TINY bit and leave the IP pulley itself alone -- you want to turn the center, large nut on the hub but ONLY with those three bolts for the pulley cracked loose -- once the IP pin is in then re-torque those three bolts to 18ft/lbs) DO NOT play with anything in or on the idler pulley or similar; anything that gets into the timing belt system or causes anything in there to lock up will cause the engine to jump time and *destroy* the cylinder head.

Then remove all three locks (pin, cam plate and screwdriver in the bellhousing) and roll the engine over CW on the crank bolt TWO full rotations and return it to TDC in the bellhousing, turning ONLY CW. Put the plate and pin back in -- they should both go back in without a problem and without moving the crank position at all. Assuming it all checks put the vacuum pump back on and button it up.

If all three of these are indexed correctly (cam, crank and IP pin) it should start, even without the glow plugs working, assuming the outside temps are even a little bit above freezing. It may not be perfect in terms of where the timing is but it WILL be in the ignition window if those are all properly lined up.

Then find someone with VCDS to figure out what else is going on.

Last edited by Genesis; August 17th, 2018 at 15:47.
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Old August 17th, 2018, 15:08   #26
BobnOH
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If I'm reading this correctly, the car hasn't run since the head replace?
Follow instruct by Genesis.
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Old August 17th, 2018, 15:43   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivoskis View Post
Good info there, thank you so much! Yes, I did suck the fuel thru the pump with a hand vacuum pump until I thought I had cleared everything. Also tested that it pumped fuel by cracking the #1 union nut to the injector. My lines are totally web covered so no bubbles are visible.

The turbo failed originally and then I failed to realise that metal junk had gone into the head at that time. Exchanged the turbo ok but very little power and then realized the camshaft was seizing up. That's when a whole Chinese head assembly went in with a new gasket ( earlier posts from 2014, and yes, the car stood idle that long! )


That is the history then. New TB with the head and I tried to match up the old timing as much as I could but it is hard to do. One thought was changing the idler roller diameter with some tape, as that would also change the pump timing by effectively shortening the belt but this then starts to become a science project. It might show incremental improvements though but may be hard to measure.

The CD I got with a supposedly VAG lookalike diagnostic program never really worked out for me, but I can see the value for having a working one. Needless to say I have many other projects going on and travel a lot plus a sailboat with two diesel engines, so I try to keep things simple. At 71 I don't want to have to learn too many new tricks all at once.

Fail train rolls back to the start.... whooop...
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Old August 17th, 2018, 17:27   #28
Ivoskis
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Did get the timing mark at the #4 cyl (far end) of the block centered into the transaxle(?) window, but did not see any other alignment marks. ( supposedly there are some per Chilton )

A perfectly sized pin gauge locked the pump and some gauge block gizmos locked the camshaft as per instructions at the vac pump end. Larger errors may be possible if the timing mark was supposed to be at one corner of the sight hole.... bummer on that then.

Yes, engine did run with this set-up and no valves binding. This was chkd by hand.

The 3 pump pulley bolts seem to be centered in their spaces OK per eyeball.

Did turn the engine over by hand with no big differences noted, but again, if the
timing mark is off by 1/4" that is probably quite a severe error of a degree or more.

Last edited by Ivoskis; August 17th, 2018 at 17:29. Reason: format
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Old August 17th, 2018, 18:00   #29
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At what point do you then slip on the timing belt and what if a groove/ridge do not line
up perfectly?
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Old August 17th, 2018, 18:59   #30
jettawreck
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Don't mean to bring a cloud of doom over this, but with a Chinese head on it I think the fail train will roll into the station eventually sometime after you get this sorted out and running again. Or, perhaps I read or comprehended that part all wrong.
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2001 Jetta TDI GLS Silver-current driver (salvage)permanently vented-Panzer Plate-Sprint 520s-ScanGauge-CheckTemp III-ZeroStart heater-CAT 2 filter
2003 Jetta GLS Black w/leather (New Project Car) fixer-upper w/broken TB
2004 Cadillac SLS (wife's)
1999 GMC Suburban (It's MN-you need one)
197? Shibura 2cyl diesel 4WD tractor-loader/brushhog (very handy unit)
196? International TD340 Dozer-w/Drott 4-in-1 bucket/back ripper attachment
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