2015 owners: Anything in manual re: B20? Check oil?

czeetah

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VW has marketed the EA288 as B20 compatible.

There was some question as to if the EA288 is B20 compatible in terms of is it really better than the old engine, or did VW simply put the same warning it sends to the owners in B20 states in the 2015 owners manual. i.e more marketing than actual improvement.

Anything in manual regarding B20 and special notes, warnings, advice to keep an eye on oil level, reduced change intervals, etc.?
 

TurboDieselPoint

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This is a very good question, and something I am genuinely interested to find out.

Indeed, is the 2015 with the EA288 truly B20 compatible i.e. can burn B20 without necessitating reduced OCIs or FFCIs according to the Owner's Manual/Maintenance Schedule?

Or is it "B20" compatible in the same sense as our CKRA's: "Yes, it can burn B20 but you have to shorten the OCI."
 

big_ole_truck

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From the 2015 Owner's Manual, paraphrasing, if the car is registered in IL, it's fine to use B6 to B20 biodiesel. But only if the car is registered in IL. Reasoning this out, if you run B6 to B20 biodiesel and your tag doesn't say "Land of Lincoln" on it and you have engine problems resulting from the use of biodiesel, you own the problem.

It's also mentioned the biodiesel may accumulate in the oil, increasing the volume and decreasing the effectiveness of the oil.

In a cliff notes summary: If your car is registered in IL, B6 to B20 may be used but check the oil level frequently for biodiesel accumulation. For the cars registered elsewhere, just say no to biodiesel.
 

40X40

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From the 2015 Owner's Manual, paraphrasing, if the car is registered in IL, it's fine to use B6 to B20 biodiesel. But only if the car is registered in IL. Reasoning this out, if you run B6 to B20 biodiesel and your tag doesn't say "Land of Lincoln" on it and you have engine problems resulting from the use of biodiesel, you own the problem.

It's also mentioned the biodiesel may accumulate in the oil, increasing the volume and decreasing the effectiveness of the oil.

In a cliff notes summary: If your car is registered in IL, B6 to B20 may be used but check the oil level frequently for biodiesel accumulation. For the cars registered elsewhere, just say no to biodiesel.

Soooo, what if you drive through or vacation in Illinois?

You might want to rethink your reasoning! Lol

Bill
 

tdiatlast

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^^^Bill, is this big_ole_truck's reasoning, or the bizarre reasoning of VWoA? It IS very strange, isn't it?
 

TDiSkater

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I don't think it said registered. It said where lower concentrations of bio is available. So drive through or short term or long term should work while you're in the land of Lincoln. Or in the land of many lakes for that matter.
 
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czeetah

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So guess we have one of two possibilities:

1) VW making big deal about EA288 being B20 compatible was a bunch of marketing department BS

2) The technical writers didn't talk to the engineers and the manual is wrong.

Not sure if we know anymore than we did three months ago!
 

tdiatlast

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Isn't this typical of VWoA "pre-release" press? We never really know anything until someone drives one off the lot. Even THEN, the owner's manual might be wrong.
 

big_ole_truck

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I don't think it said registered. It said where lower concentrations of bio is available. So drive through or short term or long term should work while you're in the land of Lincoln. Or in the land of many lakes for that matter.
My sarcastic tone gets lost in the text.

VW does state clearly in the manual the engine is designed for USLD with max B5 blend but they recognize you may be in areas of up to B20. Use it and be happy, just check the oil levels.
 

40X40

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So guess we have one of two possibilities:
1) VW making big deal about EA288 being B20 compatible was a bunch of marketing department BS
2) The technical writers didn't talk to the engineers and the manual is wrong.
Not sure if we know anymore than we did three months ago!
We still have not established that VWoA ever said that the EA288 is B20 compatible.

Please cite your sources.

Bill
 

tditom

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We still have not established that VWoA ever said that the EA288 is B20 compatible.
Please cite your sources.
Bill
From the link I provided in post #4 above:
Volkswagen has been a major purveyor of diesel-powered vehicles for decades. Last year, for instance, every fourth car produced at one of VW’s 62 global plants had a diesel engine aboard. And in the U.S., VW is the undisputed king. According to internal numbers, the Volkswagen Group owns 79 percent of America’s diesel market. Of the 111,285 diesel vehicles sold by VW last year, 95,823 were branded Volkswagen (the rest were Audi and Porsche). Now, the German auto giant has announced its next-gen modular diesel engine will be offered in the U.S.

A new breed of TDI engine named the MDB (short for Modular Diesel Baukasten, or Modular Diesel Toolkit in English) will arrive later this year in the 2015 Golf, Beetle, Beetle Convertible, Passat, and Jetta. It will eventually find its way inside the Golf Sportwagen, which is due at dealers in late 2015. The MDB is an evolution of the 2.0-liter 140-horsepower turbocharged BIN5-certified four-cylinder currently motivating a number of VW and Audi models.

According to Dr. Johannes Arning, the main man at Volkswagen AG’s Powertrain Management team, the MDB (codenamed EA288) needed to hit five development targets: lower CO2 output, reduced tailpipe emissions, improved performance, better comfort, and lower cost.

It had to be easily applicable in all vehicles utilizing numerous modular VW AG platforms (MQB, MLB, MSB), pass all global emissions standards (including ULEV125, ULEV3, EU6, and the U.S.’s BIN5, the most stringent on the planet), and operate flawlessly on fuels having diverse sulfur and Cetane levels. It was a daunting task, said Dr. Arning, but he and his team did it. In six years’ time, they crafted an engine with a displacement range of 1.4 to 2.0 liters -- depending on application -- and in which the largest version has three times the power of the smallest. The engine’s basic architecture doesn’t vary per application, but the easy-to-swap attached systems and parts (like exhaust after-treatment systems) do.

Compared to the outgoing TDI, the MDB has an improved structure including a new crank gear with reduced-friction pistons; low-friction bearings for camshaft and balancer shafts; combined oil and vacuum pumps that change oil volume depending on driving situation; and an integrated valvetrain module with needle bearings. Thermal management has also been revamped, with a heat exchanger to quickly warm up the cabin, and improved charge air cooling via an efficient water-cooled module that operates independent of ambient air temperature. Exhaust gas after-treatment was redesigned, with the unit made more compact and placed nearer to the engine, while performance of the revised low-pressure exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) module has been improved by 90 percent from 200 millibars to 20-25 millibars.

In its 2.0-liter U.S. trim, friction is down 15 percent, raw emissions are down 40 percent, horsepower is up by 10 (to 150; torque remains at 236 lb-ft), and heating performance is improved. The charge air volume is also 40 percent smaller. Drivers will notice a wider power band, improved dynamic response, faster cabin heating, and 5-8 percent better fuel efficiency. They’ll be able to fill it with diesel blends up to B20. “We’ve got one MDB, which actually works in all regions of the world, in all cars that we sell,” said Dr. Arning. “And this is what gives us the huge benefit and advantage regarding scale effects. So if you're just thinking about equipping all the different cars -- an Audi A5, an Audi A3, and Passat, and Seat Leon, all different brands -- you don’t always need to start from scratch when you install it. You basically take some of the components that you need, put them together, and that’s it." “We’ve managed to reduce investment for new production versions, and also development costs for qualification into different vehicles, as well as piece costs. When you build 2.5 million engines per year, you obviously try to make the parts all the same, and this is what we’ve achieved with the MBD. This is also what has helped us stay ahead of the competition in diesel engine technology.” Alex Nishimoto contributed to this post

Source: Volkswagen

Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/1403_dies...ent_cleaner_mdb_tdi_engine.html#ixzz3DJBqfPUO
 

40X40

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Well Tom, this is a good example of you and I think differently. The article is from MOTORTREND and within the article they DO say 'source Volkswagen'. To me this is still MOTORTREND talking, not Volkswagen as VW did not have editorial control of the article.

Now, do you have something DIRECT FROM Volkswagen that states that:

Czeetah said:
VW has marketed the EA288 as B20 compatible.
The key here is 'VW HAS MARKETED', as in ADVERTISED (and the obvious associated editorial control that goes with all advertising), not a magazine interview with an employee.

So where has VW done this? As near as I can determine, VW has been silent on the subject.

Bill
 

tditom

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Well let's see, the article author was interviewing the head of VW powertrain team and in this interview process concluded that "Drivers will ... be able to fill it with diesel blends up to B20." I'll bet that VAG got to review that article before it was released, or at a minimum would have corrected Mototrend after they published the article.

I know this wasn't directly from VWoA, but it certainly could be concluded that B20 would be OK with this new engine after reading something like this from a respected publication. Its disappointing that they didn't come through on that expectation.
 

srs5694

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FWIW, I've fired off a query to VW via their US Web site. I sent it yesterday (Saturday), so of course there's no reply yet (aside from an auto-reply). I'll report back if/when VW replies.
 

tditom

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I don't think it said registered. It said where lower concentrations of bio is available. So drive through or short term or long term should work while you're in the land of Lincoln. Or in the land of many lakes for that matter.
The MY15 Golf manual specifies that the vehicle needs to be registered in Illinois to be OK for B20 use:
http://i.imgur.com/grtJEak.jpg
 

40X40

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Well let's see, the article author was interviewing the head of VW powertrain team and in this interview process concluded that "Drivers will ... be able to fill it with diesel blends up to B20." I'll bet that VAG got to review that article before it was released, or at a minimum would have corrected Mototrend after they published the article.

I know this wasn't directly from VWoA, but it certainly could be concluded that B20 would be OK with this new engine after reading something like this from a respected publication. Its disappointing that they didn't come through on that expectation.
So that is a great big NO, they are NOT marketing the EA288 as being B20 compatible.

It's not in their advertising (that means marketing).

Thanks for clearing that up.

Bill
 

40X40

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The MY15 Golf manual specifies that the vehicle needs to be registered in Illinois to be OK for B20 use:
http://i.imgur.com/grtJEak.jpg

And if you are traveling through Illinois and need to purchase fuel, you may purchase that Illinois mandated fuel without FEAR, UNCERTAINTY, or DOUBT that your warranty is still in full effect.

Just clarifying. If you have doubts, ask a lawyer.

Bill
 

tditom

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And if you are traveling through Illinois and need to purchase fuel, you may purchase that Illinois mandated fuel without FEAR, UNCERTAINTY, or DOUBT that your warranty is still in full effect.
Just clarifying. If you have doubts, ask a lawyer.
Bill
Get off it, Bill. No one is trying to inject FUD. :rolleyes:
Just trying to understand VW stance on biodiesel usage, and specifically why they switched directions on the B20 issue for the new engine.

I agree that the wording at the beginning of the diesel fuel section in the Mk7 manual does give the tdi owner latitude to use >B5 if nothing else is available. Not sure how one would prove this if subsequent failure occurred and VW tried to pin it on bd usage. And it is confusing when you get into the Illinois owner section in the manual and they specify "vehicles registered in Illinois" in that section.
 

czeetah

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So that is a great big NO, they are NOT marketing the EA288 as being B20 compatible.
It's not in their advertising (that means marketing).
Thanks for clearing that up.
Bill
There is a large number of major auto publications that published in there interviews and marketing meetings with VW reps that VW claimed B20 compatible.

Sounds like VW marketing B20 compatible to me.
 

40X40

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There is a large number of major auto publications that published in there interviews and marketing meetings with VW reps that VW claimed B20 compatible.
Sounds like VW marketing B20 compatible to me.
Again I ask: LINKS? And why is there nothing on VWs website? You made the claim, back it up by telling us your source or YOU end up owning it. (I don't think you want to own it, an internet search shows it to be complete BS (so far).)

Are you familiar with the claims in the media that come with every new TDI model that "it gets 60 MPG" or some such ridiculous crap. VW never makes these claims.... but some hack car magazine editor will AND the cars in question never do get that kind of fuel economy ON AVERAGE. This is why we always include a link so that the members here can tell WHO is actually making the claim. IE: did the claim come from a reputable source or one known to 'errors' in the past?

At all costs never propagate misinformation to the membership... that is a worthy goal to live by.

If this seems harsh, please be assured it is not meant to be, but if you want to be taken seriously sources must be quoted.

Bill
 
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TurboDieselPoint

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Well, this is disappointing news. I'm genuinely surprised VW still is lagging behind with B20 compatibility.

I'm hoping they build the next generation of TDI engines with a 5th injector downstream of the turbo. With it, we would have complete B20(+) compatibilty, no oil dilution whatsoever, and we could keep the very hot regen EGTs from our cylinders, valves, and, importantly, the turbo. IMO all diesel engine manufacturers need to start using an extra injector. They need to learn from the LML Duramax...
 

czeetah

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Again I ask: LINKS? And why is there nothing on VWs website? You made the claim, back it up by telling us your source or YOU end up owning it. (I don't think you want to own it, an internet search shows it to be complete BS (so far).)
That's the point of the thread. So far VW refused to put it in writing but has been telling all the rags its B20 compatible.

A google search of EA288 B20 in the first few pages turns up 4-5 respected well known publications saying "VW says new engine B20 compatible"

If it was in a VW press release or official documentation we wouldn't need this thread to find out if VW was serious or just spewing BS to the press with no intention to back it up in writing.

Thats why this thread was started, to see if anyone has this in writing (I.e in their 2015 owners manual) or if its a big cloud of stinky black diesel smoke from VW.
 

srs5694

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I posted this in another thread, but I'll post it here, too: I asked VWoA about this (with respect to the 2015 Golf TDI) via their Web site, and got the following response today:

VWoA said:
I appreciate you looking for more information about biodiesel fuels, and I’m happy to assist you with any info I have available.
B5 Biodiesel is acceptable for use in Volkswagen TDI vehicles. We would not recommend using any fuel rated higher than a B5, due to the uncertainties in fuel quality specifications. This means your vehicle may be damaged by any bio-diesel with a higher rating than B5.
For your convenience, you can use the following link to see a map of bio-diesel fuel retailers here in America:
http://www.biodiesel.org/using-biodiesel/finding-biodiesel/retail-locations/retail-map#map
We would encourage you to make sure that the fuel rating is clearly labeled on the pump before filling up your vehicle.
I hope this information is helpful. If you have any additional questions for me, please feel free to reply to my email, or call our Customer CARE Center at 800-822-8987.
Sincerely,


Eric L.
Customer CARE Advocate



It sounds to me like the B20 claims for the EA288 were in error -- or at least, VWoA is backing away from those claims. Personally, this may be enough to steer me away from buying a Golf TDI; not all gas stations carry diesel, and trying to ascertain what any one carries is too great of an additional burden to place on me. Worse, the biodiesel percentages in diesel seem to be on the rise, so finding B5 or less may become impossible in the not-too-distant future. If using such fuels really is a problem, then that's a big point against the current TDIs because customers might be stuck with big repair bills in a few years.
 

tdiatlast

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I posted this in another thread, but I'll post it here, too: I asked VWoA about this (with respect to the 2015 Golf TDI) via their Web site, and got the following response today:

[/FONT]


It sounds to me like the B20 claims for the EA288 were in error -- or at least, VWoA is backing away from those claims. Personally, this may be enough to steer me away from buying a Golf TDI; not all gas stations carry diesel, and trying to ascertain what any one carries is too great of an additional burden to place on me. Worse, the biodiesel percentages in diesel seem to be on the rise, so finding B5 or less may become impossible in the not-too-distant future. If using such fuels really is a problem, then that's a big point against the current TDIs because customers might be stuck with big repair bills in a few years.
I don't think the inconvenience is that great, and IF bio levels increase, VWoA will be forced to recognize and change. With 100s of thousands of current CRTDIs on the road, I think it's unlikely VVoA will abandon them.

I understand VWoA has "abandoned" consumers in the past, but, AFAIK, the number of those vehicles doesn't compare to the number of Clean Diesels that VWoA has sold in this country.
 

srs5694

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Scenario: The current crop of Golf TDIs is designed in such a way that use of >B5 fuel will increase the likelihood of mechanical failures over a timeframe of years. If this is true, and if a failure occurs within warranty, then you're at VW's mercy to not be jerks and provide a warranty repair. Should an owner decide to keep the car beyond the warranty period, though, the owner will definitely end up paying for those repairs. VW could not be accused of "abandoning" their customers in this case, but the initial design with a <B5 limitation when VW was fully aware that customers would almost certainly be using >B5 is poor engineering at best. Since I prefer to keep cars for many years, I'm finding it hard to accept the risk.

Of course, if they're just being cautious in their communications because of older models or because their PR people haven't been properly informed about changes in the EA288 engine, then that's another matter; but we as consumers don't have direct access to the engineers who designed the things, so we've got to go on what's in manuals, press releases, and individual communications like what I posted. If VW's internal communications are so screwed up that they can't get their message right, then they deserve to lose sales as a result.
 

tditom

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Scenario: The current crop of Golf TDIs is designed in such a way that use of >B5 fuel will increase the likelihood of mechanical failures over a timeframe of years. If this is true, and if a failure occurs within warranty, then you're at VW's mercy to not be jerks and provide a warranty repair. Should an owner decide to keep the car beyond the warranty period, though, the owner will definitely end up paying for those repairs. VW could not be accused of "abandoning" their customers in this case, but the initial design with a <B5 limitation when VW was fully aware that customers would almost certainly be using >B5 is poor engineering at best. Since I prefer to keep cars for many years, I'm finding it hard to accept the risk.

Of course, if they're just being cautious in their communications because of older models or because their PR people haven't been properly informed about changes in the EA288 engine, then that's another matter; but we as consumers don't have direct access to the engineers who designed the things, so we've got to go on what's in manuals, press releases, and individual communications like what I posted. If VW's internal communications are so screwed up that they can't get their message right, then they deserve to lose sales as a result.
I understand your logic, but I think that you are jumping to a conclusion that is not yet warranted re. decreased engine life. It's my understanding that if you keep your eye on the oil level and change the oil should it increase between normal oil change intervals, then no damage is being done to the engine.

VWoA is operating with an overabundance of caution. The engine was designed to handle B20 per the folks who developed it.

But I can't blame you if you don't want to be a guinea pig with the new engine.
 

Lightflyer1

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I am currently running B5 to B20 in my Passat with no issues so far. About a year or so and 27k miles so far. Never had the oil level change yet. Probably not that big a concern unless you exceed B20. Just watch your oil level just in case.
 
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