Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

nicklockard said:

No, but I bet the tuners know which input signals control LP-EGR rates. Too bad you can't just replace the LP-EGR control signal with a %RH signal (shut EGR @ high %RH, open @ low %RH) and stick the %RH sensor right before the IC in the intake tract.

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Funny you mention that about the tuners. There was someone who posted earlier in this thread that since he had his car chipped, not one problem of IC icing and prior had several no start/rough running episodes.

has anyone gotten a loaner car out of this? or do the dealers just drain them and return them. i'm talking about places that can't get the kit yet due to backorder. i'm pretty sure thats what my dealer is going to do.

my car went in yesterday and i told them to not start the car until the hoses were checked. well i think they actually did it because they called today and found water in there. they also had the balls to ask me if i wanted my inspection done there,"only 29.99 just like anywhere else", they couldn't even throw in a free inspection for all the trouble i'm having. i must have lost at least 7 days due to down time with this car. what if this was my only car? i'm not giving VW another penny until my car works correctly.

dweisel said:

Well if there is vacuum in certain conditions there are 3 members that owe me $60 each. I donated $120 to the club on a supposed lost bet. I stated that if the seal on the coldside hose leaked then this created suction at that leak point. Everyone CONDEMEND me for stating that. Hence the bet. Now you are also thinking that at times there CAN indeed be a vacuum. IF a vacuum does occur then the open petcock idea may not work.

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You did a fine thing donating the money. Just on your behavior I would say you won. Sometimes acting like you lost, is winning. I hate to open old wounds. I do not think we would be this far without your help. You have provided a huge amount of information. The pump I got from you has provided more information still. Some do not know how much effort you put into HPFPs, filters, and all the intercooler information.

I was trying to cover bases with everyone, and stepped on your foot (I did say checking at that point and there is a little implication that we do not know exactly where the computer gets it's information from and what the program is written to show. I know for pretty much fact that if enough water is in the water trap to freeze solid, there will be a vacuum in the side next to the intake. If however, the water is frozen solid then the drain is frozen too.

We can discuss this till the cows come home. What I would like to do is see if a gooped up hose will clean itself up over time. If the drain product clears and is drained all the time it may be pretty clean.

eddif

VW's "plan" is to procrastinate until summer (like they did LAST YEAR -- does anyone remember LAST YEAR?) when everyone will forget about the intercooler icing (again). By that time, a lot of cars will be out of warranty and they'll tell you to go pound sand.

Next winter, it will be like this winter... a whole new day!! *gasp* They'll scramble and scratch their heads, deny as much as possible, tell you things are on backorder, etc.

Repeat until all cars are out of warranty.

flyboy320 said:

Funny you mention that about the tuners. There was someone who posted earlier in this thread that since he had his car chipped, not one problem of IC icing and prior had several no start/rough running episodes.

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Right, which is why I proposed that maybe VW should develop a software solution rather than introducing new hardware. Or perhaps have the IC kit include a software mod too.

flyboy320 said:

Funny you mention that about the tuners. There was someone who posted earlier in this thread that since he had his car chipped, not one problem of IC icing and prior had several no start/rough running episodes.

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I haven't followed this issue in great depth, but FWIW, it would seem to me that a tune would have more boost and generate more heat in the IC, which might have a + impact on the issue?

VW isn't going to modify the programming because doing so would require them to get the cars re-certified for emissions. Not gonna happen... period.

More heat from more boost pressure isn't a solution either. More boost pressure will lower fuel economy and the intercooler will still condense the water in the intake air at low temperatures.

Options:

1.) Keep harassing the ever loving hell out of Volkswagen. Downside: You'll end up with an ulcer and a car that is still broken.

2.) Take matters into your own hands and do as you see fit with aftermarket modifications and programming changes. This is basically what we've been doing for the past 14 years... why change now?

anyone know when kits will be in stock again? are they working on the kit revision 2.0?

VeeDubTDI said:

VW isn't going to modify the programming because doing so would require them to get the cars re-certified for emissions. Not gonna happen... period.

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Ummm I've had 2-3 ECU reprograms performed by the dealer. How many people have complained with the most recent tune?

740GLE said:

If the starter can't turn the engine over after it stalls, and if you wait 10 minutes and
the car can start as normal, where do you think the water is going?

A fire was caused by this issue when a starter over heated on a 2012 TDI post in the mk6 sedan folder.

EVERYONE WITH THIS ISSUE REPORT IT TO NTHSB ASAP!!

Who knows who could get in your car and sit on the starter for 30 seconds/2 min (i don't know why someone would do that but still) and cause your car to ignite in flames.

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I'm guessing this isn't an option for us in Canada?

gumaku1 said:

anyone know when kits will be in stock again? are they working on the kit revision 2.0?

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Yes, as I'm told from VWoC this is with the vendor and being redesigned. When pressed, they couldn't give me any actual specific state issues or how long certification / production could take.

I received a call this morning that the cold air intake (i.e., intercooler kit) that was on backorder for my car arrived. I think they have a bunch of cars to do, and they are giving me one of the two intercooler kits they received.

I was told that they had six cars in the week my car wouldn't start last month.

Also burned out the starter from the person that VW roadside assistance sent having me just keep cranking the car.

eddif said:

If however, the water is frozen solid then the drain is frozen too. What I would like to do is see if a gooped up hose will clean itself up over time. If the drain product clears and is drained all the time it may be pretty clean.
eddif

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My thoughts were if you look at the thread where the owners are reporting some data such as weather conditions and high low temps and also had a problem there is definately a pattern.
Temps below freezing. Drive to work. Temps go to 40F/45F. NO START.
or
Temps below freezing. Drive to work.Temps still below freezing. Starts fine. Leave work. Get home and park in garage.Temp in garage around 40F. Next morning or later that evening. NO START.
So,with the petcock open or partially open the ice that builds in the intercooler when temps are below freezing and then melts later to cause the water in the intercooler hose.This melting and subsiquent water either happens in the garage or when ambient temps warm to above freezing. This water should flow out and not be blocked by a frozen petcock.

740GLE said:

How many people have complained with the most recent tune?

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I've wondered that too. We have yet to have an issue this winter (after 4 or 5 last winter) and we had the latest update before it got below freezing. Granted, this has been a warm winter and I have blocked the lower grilled and removed the airbox intake tube. Too many variables to reach any conclusion, but those who have just had the latest update, I wonder if they've had better luck.

Cooper said:

I received a call this morning that the cold air intake (i.e., intercooler kit) that was on backorder for my car arrived. I think they have a bunch of cars to do, and they are giving me one of the two intercooler kits they received.

I was told that they had six cars in the week my car wouldn't start last month.

Also burned out the starter from the person that VW roadside assistance sent having me just keep cranking the car.

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You may want to call VW before you get that done: As far as I've been told by them the dealers don't know that the back order is due to design incompletion as opposed to actual part availability, to the dealer it's all one and the same. You might be getting a "V2" kit that is only going to give you the same challenge others having it installed have faced. There's a v3 in the wings we're still waiting for.

sickmtbnutcase said:

I've wondered that too. We have yet to have an issue this winter (after 4 or 5 last winter) and we had the latest update before it got below freezing. Granted, this has been a warm winter and I have blocked the lower grilled and removed the airbox intake tube. Too many variables to reach any conclusion, but those who have just had the latest update, I wonder if they've had better luck.

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I've got the most up to date programming that's available as far as I've been able to confirm, and I've had the hydrolock.

Cooper said:

I was told that they had six cars in the week my car wouldn't start last month.

Also burned out the starter from the person that VW roadside assistance sent having me just keep cranking the car.

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Lots of NO STARTS in the NE/E part of the US plus parts of Canada.

Ouch! Repeated cranking is not a good thing on CR. Two times and no start.........something is wrong.

it's gonna happen again, same weather pattern as last time in the NE, cold for a few days then warm. my dealer has 10 cars on the waiting list according to my professional liar service rep.

I think this happened to me finally a day or 2 ago. No start, just a stumble, no CEL or anything. Second try gave it a good mash on the go pedal which actually started, but VERY rough and died as soon as I released the pedal too far. I didnt have the time and inclination to leave it alone at that point so went for a 3rd try, stayed on the fuel to keep it going.....very rough, lots of steam, but after a few mins it could at least idle on its own again although not smoothly. Gave it another couple mins to a point I felt I could try moving the car without instantly killing it, and after a mile or 2 was running fine and back to normal. Odd thing is MPG is up a few since as well.

c17chief said:

I think this happened to me finally a day or 2 ago. No start, just a stumble, no CEL or anything. Second try gave it a good mash on the go pedal which actually started, but VERY rough and died as soon as I released the pedal too far. I didnt have the time and inclination to leave it alone at that point so went for a 3rd try, stayed on the fuel to keep it going.....very rough, lots of steam, but after a few mins it could at least idle on its own again although not smoothly. Gave it another couple mins to a point I felt I could try moving the car without instantly killing it, and after a mile or 2 was running fine and back to normal. Odd thing is MPG is up a few since as well.

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Recommend you change your oil!

c17chief said:

I think this happened to me finally a day or 2 ago. No start, just a stumble, no CEL or anything. Second try gave it a good mash on the go pedal which actually started, but VERY rough and died as soon as I released the pedal too far. I didnt have the time and inclination to leave it alone at that point so went for a 3rd try, stayed on the fuel to keep it going.....very rough, lots of steam, but after a few mins it could at least idle on its own again although not smoothly. Gave it another couple mins to a point I felt I could try moving the car without instantly killing it, and after a mile or 2 was running fine and back to normal. Odd thing is MPG is up a few since as well.

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Do you realize that doing this could result in bent connecting rods or worse? That's a scary thought considering that sort of problem may not manifest itself right away, costing you $BIGNUM down the road (when the useless warranty has run out).

Temps below freezing. Drive to work.Temps still below freezing. Starts fine. Leave work. Get home and park in garage.Temp in garage around 40F. Next morning or later that evening. NO START.

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What about "Temps below freezing. Drive to work.Temps still below freezing. Starts fine. Leave work. Get home and park OUTSIDE during the night, rather than the 40 degree garage?"

Would there be a better chance the car would still start the next morning and then burn off any frozen moisure on an hour highway drive in, possibly reducing the number of occurances of the freshly thawed sitting water?

Do you realize that doing this could result in bent connecting rods or worse? That's a scary thought considering that sort of problem may not manifest itself right away, costing you $BIGNUM down the road (when the useless warranty has run out).

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I don't think every one of us has a choice, when this is your only car and you have to get to work every day, not to mention being pressed for time. Honestly, to have this happen several times and each time call to have it towed is not going to happen.

VeeDubTDI said:

Do you realize that doing this could result in bent connecting rods or worse? That's a scary thought considering that sort of problem may not manifest itself right away, costing you $BIGNUM down the road (when the useless warranty has run out).

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potential yes. Certainly less then ideal but I really had to get going. More then likely if it was going to bend up the motor it would of done it right there. No doubt it put some undue stress on the motor, but at the time the result would be the same.....either I got moving or toast the engine and be stuck regardless. I did check the oil this morning for evidence of water....stick was clean, no evidence of milkiness. Down the road...chances are pretty small something will manifest, but if so, should surface before the 5yrs is up.

gumaku1 said:

anyone know when kits will be in stock again? are they working on the kit revision 2.0?

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maybe I missed something, but where did it say that there was a revision to the kit?

I may just get a chip tune....

dweisel said:

My thoughts were if you look at the thread where the owners are reporting some data such as weather conditions and high low temps and also had a problem there is definately a pattern.
Temps below freezing. Drive to work. Temps go to 40F/45F. NO START.
or
Temps below freezing. Drive to work.Temps still below freezing. Starts fine. Leave work. Get home and park in garage.Temp in garage around 40F. Next morning or later that evening. NO START.
So,with the petcock open or partially open the ice that builds in the intercooler when temps are below freezing and then melts later to cause the water in the intercooler hose.This melting and subsiquent water either happens in the garage or when ambient temps warm to above freezing. This water should flow out and not be blocked by a frozen petcock.

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Your quote of me was a statement about vacuum in a certain place and not the water drain issue.

eddif

flyboy320 said:

Funny you mention that about the tuners. There was someone who posted earlier in this thread that since he had his car chipped, not one problem of IC icing and prior had several no start/rough running episodes.

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Indeed, I had mine chipped with a Unitronic stage 1 chip and never had a bad start after that. Is it just pure luck? because I didn't had a chance to aski the technician about all the details, the shop is located in the Quebec province about 6 hours from here. I know that in Edmonton Alberta there's 2 dealership that chip their customer cars right their. They call that the European tune and it doesen't void the warrenty. They let me try out a 2011 gulf wagon chiped that way and it was almost as fast as mine. I wonder if it was something they've tried as a test to see if it will eliminate the IC problem. What do you think?

SOCAL no Intercooler issues...but

Lucky to currently live and work in SOCAL, so no iced up intercooler issues. Low humidity and temperate year round.My car is 22 months old with 24K miles.Here is my concern. I have a job offer in Dayton Ohio where I would encounter the conditions to cause the iced up intercooler issues. This may not happen until May, so I may not actually experience the issues until I'm out of my warranty period.What can owners like me do, to get the current fix and probable revisions indentified, so if an owner moves to a location where there are intercooler issues we will be protected?Anyone have any ideas.

Make it your job to make VWoA listen to your reasonable patient concerns until you get some satisfaction. Every Day. Repeat as necessary.

Well add another intercooler to the list.

I had a hard start and stall a few weeks ago but the dealer could not replicate it. VW had the service manager open a support case with VW tech center. Fast forward to Monday, I had my Golf in for an unrelated issue and it happened to the technician. VW had the technician check a few things with the fuel system to rule out gelling and such. The dealer tried to order the TSB kit but of course it’s back ordered/not available. The tech center told the technician to remove the air snorkel and return the car.

Corporate customer service has been relatively more helpful. They directed the dealer to set me up with a rental and told me to keep it till they figure out a fix.

As much as this sucks, at least I’ll be racking up miles on the rental and not my car for a change. Anyone have an idea how long they will pay for a rental before I can ask for a buy back? I have my eye on a Passat TDI.

By the way, I have reported my problem to the NHTSA. My car stalled in the middle of my street during morning traffic. I consider that safety issue as I was blocking the street till I got it started again.

STRANGETDI said:

maybe I missed something, but where did it say that there was a revision to the kit?

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I mentioned it a couple of times, based on my experience and info from VWoC

Had a rough start the other night with matching symptoms. And word on a recall for this? The engine sounded bad when it finally warmed up .. this is a huge concern right now.