www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKVI-A6 Jetta Sedan (~ 2011+)

VW MKVI-A6 Jetta Sedan (~ 2011+) Discussions area for the MkVI (2011+) Jetta sedan. This model was originally codenamed NCS (New Compact Sedan).

View Poll Results: If you have experienced intercooler icing, select from the following options...
I have experienced a hard start / no start / power loss with my original intercooler 106 89.08%
I have experienced a hard start / no start / power loss with the UPDATED intercooler 13 10.92%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 3rd, 2014, 12:45   #1
c4markee
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Grand Rapids/ Kalamazoo
Arrow Mk6 Jetta: Hard Start / No Start - Intercooler icing discussion in here!

Attention Mk6 Jetta owners! Moderator note and thread merger:

Due to the high volume of intercooler icing threads popping up with the cold weather, I'm creating a STICKY thread in this forum to contain all intercooler icing related discussions. This will make it easier to find information in the future, rather than have a dozen threads about similar issues.

Bear with me as I combine old threads in the Mk6 Jetta forum into this sticky thread. Some posts may seem out of sequence, but that's because multiple threads are being combined into one.

If you're looking for more information on intercooler icing and cold weather no-start related issues, please see (and contribute to) the following thread...

Main TDIClub intercooler icing thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=302863

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ORIGINAL THREAD/PROBLEM SUMMARY:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE 12/21/13

New TSB issued that includes all VWs with CBEA and CJAA engines (Audi A3 is unknown), including Beetle and Beetle Convertible. See attached PDF for complete TSB.

Intercooler kit changeover valve revised from 0C to 10C.

Current TSB in PDF format

-VeeDubTDI

************************************************** *************************************
UPDATE 01/18/12

GraniteRooster's Frozen Charge Air Cooler (Intercooler) FAQ / Problem Summary


In an attempt to provide to most relevant details to the forum in summary format, I have compiled the following brief of the issues. This is multifaceted problem whose unresolved issues and discussion runs much deeper than this summary - I'd encourage folks to read the thread in detail for best understanding. At 1900+ posts and counting, you'll need a cup of coffee/tea and comfy chair

Problem
When driving in winter conditions (below ~20-25F), external airflow over the air-air intercooler (IC) is cold enough to cause internal ice buildup in the IC and outlet charge hose assembly. Ice buildup may lead to a variety of operational difficulties including restricted intake, reduced power, LIMP mode, engine stumbling, melt water or ice ingestion, and catastrophic engine damage.

Affected Engines
All 2.0L CR TDI engines (CJAA/CBEA) installed in all 2009-2012 model year Jetta TDI, Jetta Sportwagen TDI, and Golf TDI vehicles. Vehicles in both US and Canada are affected.

Occurrence
Ice buildup occurs while driving in cold winter conditions, typically below ~20-25F. Melt water and ice ingestion may be experienced on subsequent engine start if the car is allowed to thaw while parked (such as in a warm garage, or warm parking lot above freezing temperatures).

Causes
This is a thermodynamic phenomenon caused by condensation and subsequent freezing or direct vapor deposition of water vapor as the turbo-compressed charge air is cooled through the IC and outlet charge hose assembly. Two main aspects of engine design contribute to the problem:
  1. Low-pressure EGR is used to control NOx formation for emissions compliance, however, this recirculates water vapor rich exhaust back to the turbo and IC.
  2. The IC design on these vehicles is very efficient, providing good heat transfer and economy (and good ice formation under proper conditions)
Symptoms
Ice
  • Restricted Intake & Reduced Power
  • LIMP Mode (flashing MIL’s, “Service Now” message)
  • Engine will not turn over (complete ice obstruction of intake)
  • Catastrophic engine damage (ice chip ingestion)
Water
  • Engine will not turn over, "dead battery" starter action (due to hydraulic resistance in cylinder)
  • Starter/electrical fires (due to starter overheating during attempts to start locked engine)
  • Engine will turn over slow / not start (drowning)
  • Engine will misfire, stumble, and run roughly upon starting (water ingestion)
  • Engine will misfire, stumble and run roughly upon acceleration (water ingestion)
  • Catastrophic engine damage (water ingestion – hydrolock)
Solutions
VW has issued Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) TSB # 21 11 06 / 2025464 Frozen Charge Air Cooler. The kit may be installed by dealers on documented vehicles under original 36k warranty. Customers outside 36k warranty have often been denied installation under 60k powertrain warranty.

A (basically ineffective placebo) temporary solution implemented by VW involves removal of the forward facing cold air intake "snorkle" so that the airbox draws air from the engine bay, which allegedly may be warmer. In practice, TDIClub member testing has shown this modification to make insignificant changes to intake air temperatures, and is therefore ineffective.

What to Do - Frozen IC happened to me!
If the car won't start after one attempt, or stumbles and dies after an initial attempt, ***STOP!*** You have some decision making to do...

Further attempts to start the engine may (or may not) cause damage from minor to catastrophic. Depending on the amount of water in the intake and engine, damage may occur to pistons, connecting rods, glow plugs, injectors, head gaskets, etc. due to hydraulic lock. There is also risk of starter and electrical system damage from repeated start attempts against a locked engine. You will need to choose:
  • Service the car (preferred) , or
  • Attempt to start the engine and get where you are going (risky)
The best solution is to clear the intake and engine of water and ice before starting. However, it seems the engines are often able to pass melt water with undetectable or no damage. The preferred actions are:
  • Option 1: If under 36k warranty period, have the car towed to a VW dealer by VWoA to have the water and ice drained out and problem documented for installation of Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) TSB # 21 11 06 / 2025464 Frozen Charge Air Cooler. Dealers typically will require this hands-on service and documentation to gain required approval from VWoA for installation of the IC TSB under warranty.
  • Option 2: Elevate the front of the car on jackstands, remove belly pan and lower IC outlet charge hose, remove water and ice from assembly. Reassemble and drive. This option will not be convenient for a typical owner in most typical situations, given need for jacks, stands, tools, light, etc. plus safe environment and time to complete the repair.
  • Option 3: Have vehicle towed to appropriate repair facility for removal of water and ice from the IC assembly
Owners should report problems to their VW dealer and VWoA (1-800-822-8987) (or VWoC, etc.) as they occur. VWoA has the ultimate say in warranty installation of IC Kits; they rely on dealers to be gatekeepers on diagnosis, therefore dissatisfied owners having difficulty with installation approval should increase negotiations directly with both dealer and VWoA. Owners with safety concerns due to this issue should contact NHTSA and report their concerns.


************************************************** *************************************
UPDATE 01/17/12

Click hyperlink for .PDF copy of TSB # 21 11 06 / 2025464

(Credit 740GLE Post #1352)


************************************************** *************************************
UPDATE 09/14/11

TSB # 21 11 01 / 2025464 dated May 24, 2011 has been super-ceded by TSB # 21 11 02 / 2025464 dated June 14, 2011 and most recently, TSB # 21 11 06 / 2025464 dated September 6, 2011. The latest TSB referenced updates to warranty table and labor information. It may be helpful to reference the latest TSB when requesting warranty work.

(Credit Aerox Post #1003)


************************************************** *************************************

UPDATE 6/2011

There is now a TSB with a fix for this issue. TSB # 21 11 01 / 2025464 dated May 24, 2011, titled "Frozen Charge Air Cooler – Engine Will Not Start". It calls for installing a 1K0-198-803-B Cold Weather Intercooler Kit.

The kit includes:
  • New Intercooler (IC) with internal vacuum-actuated flap valve
  • Vacuum Sensor
  • Intake Elbow with Temperature Probe & Vacuum Actuator
  • required plumbing

Installation requires 3-4 hours labor and corresponding ECU software update. This kit was installed on my car by VW on 07/06/2011. Here are pictures of the kit installed on my '10 JSW, as seen from the front of the engine compartment. The post-IC intake charge temperature/vacuum actuator are circled in red. The rest of the kit is not easily viewed without removing the engine belly pan, etc.





EDIT 03/07/2012: Member UberVW_TDI posted nice pictures of the components of the kit in Post 792.

Integrated Temperature Sensor and Vacuum Switch / Blending Valve mounted on Elbow


Intercooler with vacuum actuated diverter valve


03G-906-051-K (VACUUM SENSOR)


EDIT 03/07/2012: Member PAJettaTDI posted good photos of his installation in his photo thread.



------------------------------------
------------------------------------


Post from original merged thread:

Last year about Feb I had to bring my car to the dealer because it would not start, let it sit awhile and fired up.
Did it again yesterday. Pulled out the battery tester, had 95% left and just flipped to maintain. Went upstairs for something and came back it fired up, ran like poop and smoothed out.
Started looking into it and driving in the snow storm could have frozen my inter cooler from what I have seen, no codes though. Brought it to the dealer yesterday after work (ran fine to work ect), to have them look at it and install the tech bulletin equipment (IF THEY FOUND WATER?!) Sounds like they found a bit of water, not sure what their plan is, they want to keep it this weekend to see if it does it again Monday.
Anything else it could be before I start throwing a fit at them, already emailed VW cares executive people on it again.
Had the glow plug #3 go out last month too. I live in Michigan, I do not understand why a tech bulletin for cold weather stuff would even be considered optional at that point.

Last edited by VeeDubTDI; January 27th, 2014 at 08:16. Reason: wrong year in title
c4markee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2014, 06:13   #2
Bigwhitebeast
Veteran Member
 
Bigwhitebeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New York
TDI(s): 2012 Jetta
Default

Sounds like the intercooler icing issue, it doesn't matter if you were in a snowstorm, the issue happens due to the cold weather and then the thawing.

The intercooler tech bulletin doesn't really fix the issue so...
__________________
2012 Jetta TDI - commuter vehicle
2001 Dodge Cummins - 852 ft/lbs of torque
Bigwhitebeast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2014, 20:00   #3
TDI'in
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Harrisburg, Pa
TDI(s): 11 Jetta Tdi
Default

Intercooler...........

Had the same problem with my '11. Dealer performed the TSB about a month ago.
TDI'in is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2014, 05:40   #4
c4markee
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Grand Rapids/ Kalamazoo
Default

Lovely.. Gave me a warm fuzzy as I read this. Stopped by the dealer Friday night. They said they found a little water in the system but not a lot... I requested all the compression numbers of the cylinders.
Said they could not address the TSB until they got it to repeat the issue. Their DOE is to let the vehicle sit outside all weekend. Then try to start it Monday.
Not sure what that will accomplish. But guess we will see.
Called the VW customer cares and will be getting a call back from a warranty specialist I guess.
c4markee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2014, 06:05   #5
jmarshall
Veteran Member
 
jmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ahrensville, PA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by c4markee View Post
Lovely.. Gave me a warm fuzzy as I read this. Stopped by the dealer Friday night. They said they found a little water in the system but not a lot... I requested all the compression numbers of the cylinders.
Said they could not address the TSB until they got it to repeat the issue. Their DOE is to let the vehicle sit outside all weekend. Then try to start it Monday.
Not sure what that will accomplish. But guess we will see.
Called the VW customer cares and will be getting a call back from a warranty specialist I guess.
Well since you have to drive the car to have the ice form in the intercooler, their plan seems like they are trying to purposely not be able to replicate the problem.
jmarshall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2014, 06:55   #6
c4markee
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Grand Rapids/ Kalamazoo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmarshall View Post
Well since you have to drive the car to have the ice form in the intercooler, their plan seems like they are trying to purposely not be able to replicate the problem.
Yea. I told him that his experiment was flawed. Did not seem to understand. Since it has happened twice (once 3/13, documented that it was in for a no start / lockup condition) I have VW calling me today. See what happens.

Could this have caused the glow plug #3 to go bad you guys think? They didn't save it when I picked it up, so I couldn't check to see what it was reading / anything.
c4markee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2014, 10:25   #7
c4markee
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Grand Rapids/ Kalamazoo
Default

Just got off the phone with the dealer. They are going to put the kit on. Dont know if that will help but at least its a step.
Asked for compression numbers again we will see if I get those.
c4markee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2014, 17:45   #8
jmarshall
Veteran Member
 
jmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ahrensville, PA
Default IC icing TSB outside of warranty period?

Has anyone had any issues getting VWoA to install this TSB on a car that is out of warranty?
jmarshall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2014, 14:14   #9
Jayg
Veteran Member
 
Jayg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Anchorage, AK
Default 2012 runs rough then stalls. Possible IC issue

I think I need to be added to the list of folks with the frozen intercooler. I'm waiting for a tow right now luckily at my girlfriends apartment. It has been Anywhere from 6* to 40* over the last few days here outside of Atlanta. Fuel treated with PS white bottle.

I drove the car last night in 14* weather and parked it over night. I go to leave this afternoon at about 45* and the key turns and I get 1 slow rotation. Hmm I thought the battery was low, though it shouldn't be. I try it again and the car runs ROUGH for maybe 2 seconds and then stalls. Sounds like it sucked in a big gulp of melted ****ty EGR. I stopped trying to turn it on but it sounds like a textbook IC icing. I need the TSB number 21 11 01 / 2025464 dated May 24, 2011, titled "Frozen Charge Air Cooler ***8211; Engine Will Not Start". It calls for installing a 1K0-198-803-B Cold Weather Intercooler Kit.

Sorry folks, I know i'm preaching to the choir here but I'm only going to type that paragraph once and then email it to the service advisor.

Just venting here. It really seems awful that for me to feel like this car would be reliable would be to delete the EGR/DPF, get a fuel pump filter return kit and then a tune. 3 grand worth of bull**** and I WANT a stock car. My other vehicles are toys I use whenever but this is the normal sane car that I need to turn on every time.

Last edited by Jayg; January 8th, 2014 at 14:32.
Jayg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2014, 15:05   #10
jmarshall
Veteran Member
 
jmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ahrensville, PA
Default

After my rough start issues last week, I am worried about what might happen come this weekend when it gets to 50.
jmarshall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2014, 15:55   #11
jmarshall
Veteran Member
 
jmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ahrensville, PA
Default

Anyone? I can't believe that there is no one here who has had experience getting this kit on a car that is outside of the 3/36 warranty.
jmarshall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2014, 18:05   #12
Softrockrenegade
Veteran Member
 
Softrockrenegade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Howellbama, NJ
Default

You can but it's gonna cost about 1400 for the dealer to install it.
__________________
Softrockrenegade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2014, 18:14   #13
jmarshall
Veteran Member
 
jmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ahrensville, PA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Softrockrenegade View Post
You can but it's gonna cost about 1400 for the dealer to install it.
So no luck with the known issue/design flaw approach? Would the IC be covered under the powertrain warranty?
jmarshall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2014, 19:55   #14
pete's_TDI
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Long Island NY
Default

if you have the issue and there is TSB for it, i would try to document it somehow , and maybe contact your local dealer. if you wont get anywhere try to call VWofA and talk to them. be nice politeness gets a lot done. Maybe you will get that taken care of.
__________________
AbsoluteAutoDetailing.org serving NY long island area
best mpg 59.8 on 32 mile trip
pete's_TDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2014, 05:23   #15
Engineers<3Diesel
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North Carolina
Default

Mine is in the shop right now for this. Wife called me yesterday to tell me she couldn't start the car. She drove to work it was 14 degrees that morning. When I got to the car that evening it was 38. I've got 39000 miles on it so just outside of the 36000 mile window. Bad part is I asked to have this installed before the window was up and was denied as I didn't experience a failure.

We shall see how today goes. Noticed a few TDIs outside of the shop last night when towing the car in so curious as to how many of those had the same issue.
Engineers<3Diesel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here! GraniteRooster VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010-2014) 5335 January 10th, 2017 13:08
Golf tdi 99 hard start from cold and yesterday won't start at all deep_sing VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 17 December 13th, 2013 06:48
Hard start problem, still after going every hard start thread snowboardphil VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 9 July 6th, 2013 17:31
98 Jetta tdi Hard to start hot, now no start DRVRFWND VW MKIII-A3/B4 TDIs 6 February 7th, 2011 22:01
Discussion: 01 Jetta no start paramedick VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 11 June 30th, 2008 14:24


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.22217 seconds with 12 queries
[Output: 141.38 Kb. compressed to 120.24 Kb. by saving 21.14 Kb. (14.95%)]