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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

View Poll Results: Which AMSOIL?
Premium API CJ-4 Diesel Oil (DEO) 100 28.65%
European Car Formula Motor Oil (AFL) 249 71.35%
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Old June 30th, 2006, 13:19   #31
AndyH
 
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jombl - I have yet to make a penny - much less a buck - from this forum. I share what I've learned as a way to give back to the group that I first learned about oil analysis from, and learned how to inspect, purchase, and maintain my two B4s. I'm a registered vendor because the rules of the forum require that I register. The down side is that I apparently lose the ability to be a 'private person' with info to share.

The video clips came from a biography of AMSOIL's founder that was presented to the boss during AU'06 the end of May. The folks interviewed on the video were seated around the 'head table' at the premier. The group included former USAF commanders (1 and 2-star generals and medal of honor winners), Bobby Unser, folks from Battenfield Grease and Mobil Chemical, company chemists from the late 60s and early 70s, family, and long time friends. None of them were paid to appear on the video or at the ceremony for AJ.

The experimental/amateur built numbers shift once the homebuilt is thru it's 40-hour test period. I expect the numbers you quoted are 'gross' numbers - with which I don't disagree. During the test period, no passengers are carried, and flight ops are restricted to unpopulated areas within a radius of a designated test airfield, so falling on a house isn't an issue if one discovers a fuel system error in flight.

One thing that I've been trying to do is 'correct' assumptions and/or disinformation. I'm not going to change your mind, jombl, but I don't think it's fair to the rest of the membership to let 'garbage info' contaminate our 'corporate knowledge'. That's the line I'm trying to walk. The folks that need to be here teaching us are people like TooSlick, GeorgeESQ, and others. The impression I get is that they stay away - and the club is poorer - because of the attacks, FUD, and circular arguements. What are we doing to ourselves when we act this way? (And yes, I'm painting myself with this brush as well - there are no 1-sided fights.)

P1 - with respect - you don't think that "Why will Amsoil jeopordize the warranty...and if you are not approved, warranty will be voided." is irresponsible and confrontational? Especially for an unregistered vendor?

WNY PAT suggests (in a very nice way - thank you!) that AU is simply about motivation. We did have cook-outs in the evenings, had the movie premier, and the evening with the corporate-sponsored race teams, but the classes are 8-4 and 'firehose' style (try to catch everything coming your way). Thanks for the compliment, Pat. I've sampled books and classes from Noria, Lubrizol's K2M program, stuff from the SAE and other orgs -- AU beats them all in tailored content and 'bang for the buck' - which I like a lot.

Here's the table of contents from my 4" thick binder. This doesn't include the CDs and DVDs from the IRS, Infineum, and other coursework. It also doesn't include the 'extra' case studies and cost analysis info that fills another 2" binder.






Lurker_Mike - professional quality signs are available, and sold at or below cost - there's no commission or profit on these items for either the dealer or Corporate. I provide them to my retail stores. Retail stores can purchase them as well. https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/lit/g1744.pdf (Page 4 has shelving, pages 5 and 6 have signs, banners, and flags.) In addition, AMSOIL has a couple of co-op programs where folks can significant discounts on lit and signs - 33%, 50%, and free.

Andy

Last edited by AndyH; June 30th, 2006 at 13:31.
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Old June 30th, 2006, 15:00   #32
BKmetz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P1Performance
""""Sootch, it was the MOTUL guy who first mentioned Amsoil, not Andy. If this forum had reps from the other brands listed I would expect them to get involved too. I did not find Andy's response unreasonable."""""

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let start by saying that i did not have anything negative to say about Amsoil. All i stated was: Why is Amsoil stating they are an approved VW 505.01 oil, when they are not approved. Also, if they are willing to stand behind its product. Andy answered it and thats it.
My intention was not to infer that you did say anything negative about Amsoil, only that the word "Amsoil" came up first in your post. I understood that you mentioned it just as another brand of oil (which is all that it is). I apologize if my comments read as if something negative was implied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by P1Performance
""""jombl, I do not have a problem with your facts. I have a HUGE problem with your attitude. Attacks, insults, and slander will not be tolerated. I don't care how much you think you are right, there is no excuse for an attack or calling someone a liar, twice. Andy is not a liar, his version of the facts simply do not agree with your version of the facts. Liar means intentional deceit, this is not the case. Figure out a more diplomatic way to make you point because next time will involve time-outs. You have been told.""""

Jombl was just correcting AndyH. If AndyH can correct me with info that can be easily misinterpreted by a reader, then why can't Jombl correct AndyH or make it clearer for everyone. As for attack or just thinking you are smarter than most people on this forum. I didn't mean to write "there" instead of "their", but AndyH felt compelled to correct me. I can only wish to be an english professor.
Again, my complaint with Jombl is his "style" of posting. I have no arguement with people debating what the facts are. I do agree that correcting grammer is petty.
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Old June 30th, 2006, 15:07   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank M
The pics are of Amsoil Dealers. Nothing wrong with that.
Thousands of people drive by those establishments every day and see those signs.



If you, as an Amsoil dealer are offended by them, then think about the motorist driving by those establishments everyday. Wouldn't they think some one is crazy to buy that Amsoil from them...
And since this is an Internet site, the photo and your argument for posting it has no relevance here. Now, if some Amsoil rep used that pic as an avatar, I could give your argument some credence.
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Old June 30th, 2006, 15:27   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyH
The folks that need to be here teaching us are people like TooSlick, GeorgeESQ, and others. The impression I get is that they stay away - and the club is poorer - because of the attacks, FUD, and circular arguments. What are we doing to ourselves when we act this way? (And yes, I'm painting myself with this brush as well - there are no 1-sided fights.)
And this sums up best so far why I forced a moratorium on posting about Amsoil. Who would waste time with TDIClub after reading some of the Amsoil threads? We are our own worst enemies. We can do much better.
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Old June 30th, 2006, 19:00   #35
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How many TDI owners have been refused warranty on account of the subject being discussed, regardless of the manufacturer?

I respect the fact that someone has such a strong desire to ward off the possibility (even one as remote as this one) of someone else's future financial distress based upon their own personal choices, I really do. It's admirable.

But it's also overkill.

It still falls upon the consumer to make the right choices.

I don't see the words "Certified by VWA" in this snippet from the website of the oil company being discussed:

Quote:
It is the only oil in North America to be recommended for the latest specifications of all three major European automakers - Volkswagen (Audi), BMW and Mercedes-Benz and the latest North American API specifications.
It is being recommended by the manufacturer. They would not lay their reputation on the line in order to sell a relatively modest amount of oil as it compares to overall sales.

It still falls upon the consumer to make the right choices.
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Old June 30th, 2006, 21:21   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fixer
When someone (a vendor) has a financial interest in his 'version of the facts' and someone else has no financial interest in their 'version of the facts' it should be obvious who has no credibility and who does.
NO it should not!

Financial interest is a clue, but that is all you can say about it. Some people with a financial interest are perfectly honest anyway. Most people without a financial interest have no clue.

The only person you can credit is someone who shows they are qualified to talk about the subject. That means that they have done research (which could mean they read research papers and summarized them, so long as they cite their sources). Almost nobody is willing to go through this much effort unless there is something financial involved. I'm willing to read some research, but not the volumes required to become an expert unless I'm paid.

There is the rare soul who likes to read papers (or do their own lab research) who can be trusted.

Oil is an important part of cars, so most people with a car would be financially advantaged to research their oils, but this isn't enough to pay for the effort involved.

Can you trust can you trust Amsoil's engineers? Most likely, they should know what they are talking about to do their job. Most engineers are honest - honest enough that most companies filter everything engineering says though marketing first. (Note, there are dishonest engineers, so you still need to be careful)

Can you trust Amsoil's marketing? I wouldn't trust any marketing. (Amsoil has excellent marketing. Low budget, but getting many tiny dealers scattered around the country is an excellent marketing tactic) The question is how much of the truth do their let out.

Can you trust Amsoil's dealers? Some you can, most you cannot - not that most will lie deliberately, but that most just do not know enough engineering themselves to understand what Amsoil is saying, and so they will misrepresent it accidentally ( but as always some will lie intentionally).

P.S. university professors have a financial interest as well, but they are (or should be...) paid for telling the truth with no additional benefit for giving an advantage to any side of a question. When you combine this with the fact that they are engineers (generally of the best class) unfiltered by marketing, and they have earned their reputation. However they still have a financial interest.

Remember, when you see someone without a financial interest talking about something you should ask why they bother. There can often be very enlightening answers there - if you can find them.
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Old June 30th, 2006, 21:27   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmHayseed

It still falls upon the consumer to make the right choices.
I don't see the words "Certified by VWA" in this snippet from the website of the oil company being discussed:

It is being recommended by the manufacturer.
It still falls upon the consumer to make the right choices.
It is impossible for the consumer to make an informed choice when people who stand to gain financially make the following statements:

Quote:
The wording is VERY important because in this country, requiring the spec runs against Mag-Moss. Double check the words used by the reps from the API in this thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...19&postcount=1 "...look for oils claiming they meet VW recommendations..." and "In the USA it is generally not possible to require the use of a specific engine oil..."
I tend to agree with the following post from a person who did not have a financial incentive to cloud the VW 505.01 issue:

Quote:
VW violates Magnuson Moss with PD oil requirements
I read the article this morning (about) the complaint filed by the Automotive Oil Change Association. The folks that should be in the 'cross-hairs' of a protest is the association for wasting the FTC's time with this complaint. This just proves that the Association didn't take the time to understand what VW was doing, and doesn't suggest that their legal department really understands the MM Act.
...
Too many lawyers, too many associations, and not enough common sense. Sigh.
Here's the best part. They're both from AndyH. The first one was after he began to stock, sell and market an oil Amsoil put out as 505.01 "recommended" . The second one was from 2004 before Amsoil had thought to slap a '505.01' sticker on their oil cans without the bother of actually going through the testing and approval process.

It's perfectly all right to show the strengths of the oil in testing and claim, based on concrete evidence, that the oil will not damage a PD motor. It is not all right to intentionally mislead and make stuff up on the fly to further ones own interests at someone elses expense through the cynical use of doubt and misdirection.


I am not qualified to interpet or debate oil on it's technical merits, but I can say that nothing I've read from the poster outside of the scientific arena has withstood even the most minor of scrutiny or reason.

Last edited by SuburbanTDI; June 30th, 2006 at 22:02.
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Old June 30th, 2006, 22:28   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hank miller
Financial interest is a clue, but that is all you can say about it.
I strongly disagree. I would say it's more than a clue, more like a blaring siren and flashing strobe light. I do not make purchasing decisions based on what the salesman of that item tells me about it. In my opinion his statements have no value.
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Old June 30th, 2006, 22:39   #39
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It's all quite simple.

VW supplies a book with every car they sell.

It states clearly what oil to use.

If the book is no longer available, the dealerships all have telephones. They also have front doors which you pass through to gain access to their staff of people inside. Those people share information about their products (cars) freely with consumers.

Oil changes are offered there, for a fee, or, you can make the choice to go elsewhere to either have the oil changed for you, again, for a fee, or you can purchase the proper lubricants to do it yourself, if you are technically inclined enough to do so.

The consumer has nothing, I repeat, NOTHING which will prevent a perfectly informed decision, regardless of what XYZ oil company website, or ABC service center does (or does not) tell them.

If a consumer is unable to get the information needed to keep his/her warranty intact, then that consumer just didn't make the attempt.

How, pray tell, is that the fault of XYZ oil company?
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Old July 3rd, 2006, 07:06   #40
bjmarler
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Quote:
VW supplies a book with every car they sell.

It states clearly what oil to use.
Unfortunately, many of the books sold with the 2004 & 2005 cars were wrong. As were the stickers in the engine compartment.
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Old July 3rd, 2006, 11:28   #41
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I have read this thread and am a little confused. AMSOil does have a product that is certified 505.01.

It is:
European Car Formula
Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil
(AFL)

http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/afl.aspx

When this oil was first introduced it did not have this certification. Recently, I do not remember the date, this changed.

I have been an AMSOil user since 1976. I have logged over 700,000 miles on various AMSOil engine oils, mostly the 10w-40 full synthetic. I have used the synthetic gear lube in all these vehicles and the automatic transmission fluid in one. I have had nothing but superb performance from all these. I know there are horror stories about AMSOil use. All with which I am personally acquainted, the problems could have been equally caused by something else.

One engine I changed the oil every 12,000 miles and at 200,000 I did have to change the timing chain. The engine still had good compression when I totaled the car about a year later.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Bill
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Old July 3rd, 2006, 11:36   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmahaffey
I have logged over 700,000 miles on various AMSOil engine oils, mostly the 10w-40 full synthetic. I have used the synthetic gear lube in all these vehicles and the automatic transmission fluid in one. I have had nothing but superb performance from all these. I know there are horror stories about AMSOil use. All with which I am personally acquainted, the problems could have been equally caused by something else.

One engine I changed the oil every 12,000 miles and at 200,000 I did have to change the timing chain. The engine still had good compression when I totaled the car about a year later.
I have looged over 2 million miles and never used Amsoil or had an oil related failure.
Many engines had well over 200,000 miles and the timing chains were fine. All this of regular dino oil..
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Old July 3rd, 2006, 11:47   #43
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Frank,

I apologize, I did not intend to add to the AMSOil debate. I am new to the forums and did not know the history in this forum about AMSOil. I am just trying to add information to the pool and it seemed that no one was aware of the 505.01 certification of AMSOil AFL. I just though it was good to know since it is less expensive than the oil at the VW Dealer.

Everyone, Have a wonderful day.

Bill
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Old July 3rd, 2006, 12:05   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmahaffey
I have read this thread and am a little confused. AMSOil does have a product that is certified 505.01.

It is:
European Car Formula
Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL)

http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/afl.aspx

When this oil was first introduced it did not have this certification. Recently, I do not remember the date, this changed.


Your post illustrates the ongoing conflict perfectly.

Regardless of what Amsoil states, it is not on the VW list of PD approved oils and has not submitted any oil to VW for PD certification. To the Amsoil critics this is deceit, lies, misinformation, evil, etc, and brings in the issues of whose warranty covers an engine failure etc. Anyone who promotes Amsoil in a PD engine is thus labeled liar under a guilt by association mentality and is attacked as fair game under the anti-Amsoil pack mentality. To the pro-Amsoil camp, it's a matter of, "So what, I'm using it anyway. So go pound sand."

We have two sides who have no interest in finding a middle ground. Some extremists will break every forum rule and risk being banned to prove their point. Thus the endless dead-end redundant debates on Amsoil and my attempt to reach a concensus on how to handle Amsoil threads.
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Old July 3rd, 2006, 14:25   #45
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Brian,

Folks are a little too quick to read into these posts what they want to see, not what is intended. I apoligize for the way I worded my post and to anyone who is, has been or will be offended by anything I say or have said here.

I have just discovered that you are correct about AMSOil 5w-40 AFL not being certified by VW as 505.01. However, there is another side to the story. I understand that VW requires a lubricant manufacturer to pay to have their lubricants VW certified, AMSOil has not done this. AMSOil has engineered their AFL oil to meet or exceed all the requirements of the VW 505.01 specification. My 30 years of experience with AMSOil products is that they usually far exceed the specifications. I would be surprised if that is not the case here.

Again, I apologize to all the players. I am very excited about becoming a member of the TDI club and was just trying to help out a fellow member.

Everyone, please have a wonderful and blessed day.

Bill
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