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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old March 17th, 2006, 04:51   #16
dieseldorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david_594
There is a synthetic G52 and a non synthetic G52.
Where does this come from
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Old March 17th, 2006, 06:51   #17
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first - i just threw that out there that this may be a straight 75, it could be a multigrade - i don't know. however...

Quote:
Originally Posted by robnitro
Wow, 6.3 cst! But then, if its a straight 75, it would thicken up a lot with lower temps and be notchy like david_594 experiences.
the above is not what i understand would be the case. multi-grade oils start with a light base oil and add viscosity improving (VI) additives so the oil will not thin too greatly when hot. a multi-grade 75 with VI additives, like a 75w-90, would test as a 90 at 100c (13.5+ cSt). a straight 75, without VI additives, would test as a 75 at 100c (approximately 4.3 to 7.2 cSt).

if G52 were a straight 90, then robnitro's theory that "it would thicken up a lot with lower temps and be notchy like david_594 experiences" could be accurate.

but, knowing what we know, i doubt david's cold tranny notchiness is a result of G52's viscosity. it could be that G52 is not the best choice for use in transmissions where G50 is specified or it could be, as tonglsi suggested, that possibly david's shift cables could use calibration.

DD - the G52 that is synthetic is NOT specified for use in our tranny's, it's a 2004+ 02M fluid. part number G052171A2.
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Old March 17th, 2006, 12:36   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david_594
Mike, you could by chance look up 2 posts....
Oops.
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Old March 17th, 2006, 14:17   #19
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G052171A2 is $25.35 per unit (liter?) on 1stvwparts.com
G052726A2 is $9.80 per unit
G05272601 not found

Are these different quantities of the same stuff (liters vs gal??) or are they different

Anyone know what the difference is in the 02M compared to the 02J and why they can run at ~1/2 the viscosity?
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Old March 17th, 2006, 14:51   #20
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Quote:
G052726A2 is $9.80 per unit
G05272601 not found
both of these numbers are listed on the 1 liter bottle of G52 i have
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Old March 18th, 2006, 00:05   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseldorf
Where does this come from
Bentley manual for the MK4, the most recent version with the PD motor in it I believe makes mention of a synthetic and non synthetic G52 gear oil. I will double check tommorow.
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Old March 18th, 2006, 02:23   #22
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Hey SUNRG,
I meant it would be a straight 75, a straight 90 would test at 13.5+ at 100, not 6.3. So either it is a XXw-75, or a straight 75. Isn't the higher number the visc at 100C??? Didn't they test the G52 at a 75 weight viscosity at 100C?

So then, if it is a straight 75 (not even a 90) it would be thick like molasses at 0c, or so. Our trannies probably don't even hit 100C on normal driving conditions, so that may be why they use a 6-7 cst fluid at 100C. But then, a straight viscosity oil would be less prone to shearing, so maybe its a cheap way to make VW be able to run dino oil.

One thing that perplexes me, is the stories of how Specialty Formulations MTL-R does so well in our O2J trannies. Its a 75w90, with 14.5 or so at 100C. Maybe they run a huge VI, like the pennzoil syncromesh (which is at 190 or so VI).

Anyhow, the crazy VW price makes me go ugh about G52 and G50. I'll stick to Pennzoil Syncromesh (w/ more often changes), or Specialty Formulations MTL-R or MTL-P.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRG
first - i just threw that out there that this may be a straight 75, it could be a multigrade - i don't know. however...



the above is not what i understand would be the case. multi-grade oils start with a light base oil and add viscosity improving (VI) additives so the oil will not thin too greatly when hot. a multi-grade 75 with VI additives, like a 75w-90, would test as a 90 at 100c (13.5+ cSt). a straight 75, without VI additives, would test as a 75 at 100c (approximately 4.3 to 7.2 cSt).

if G52 were a straight 90, then robnitro's theory that "it would thicken up a lot with lower temps and be notchy like david_594 experiences" could be accurate.

but, knowing what we know, i doubt david's cold tranny notchiness is a result of G52's viscosity. it could be that G52 is not the best choice for use in transmissions where G50 is specified or it could be, as tonglsi suggested, that possibly david's shift cables could use calibration.

DD - the G52 that is synthetic is NOT specified for use in our tranny's, it's a 2004+ 02M fluid. part number G052171A2.
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Old March 18th, 2006, 03:12   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david_594
I will double check tommorow.

OK, let us know.

Last time I checked G52 was $8/L.

Thx.
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Old March 18th, 2006, 10:15   #24
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From the bentley manual:


Take it for what its worth. The stuff I used was the bottle on the right.
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Old March 18th, 2006, 10:15   #25
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Quote:
So then, if it is a straight 75 (not even a 90) it would be thick like molasses at 0c, or so.
No. The SAE using seperate and arbitrary systems for classifying gear oil and motor oil viscosities makes this confusing though...

75w-90 roughly equates to 10w40

in motor oils, G52 may be a straight 10. or using multigrade terminology, a 10w-10. SAE 10 when cold, SAE 10 when hot - meaning it does thin when hot but as expected for a SAE 10 oil.

this is part of the confusion with SAEs arbitrary viscosity numbers.

don't take my word on this - buy a liter of G52 and a liter of your favorite 75w-90. stick samples of them both in the freezer and see a) if G52 becomes syrup and b) which sample appears / feels thinner or seems to flow more readily.

here's some more info on relative viscosities: link
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Last edited by SUNRG; March 18th, 2006 at 10:25.
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Old March 18th, 2006, 13:51   #26
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My 01 Golf definitely does not have sysnthetic in the tranny, It gets very notchy in winter but the 04 is smooth. When I added up some oil in the 01, it stank like sulfur, only dino gear oil smell like that
i am planning on using MT-90 on both cars, I had used MTL on my 16v scirocco, that stuff was leaking out of everywhere but the tranny was very smooth.
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Old March 18th, 2006, 16:30   #27
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The G52 is even thinner than an ATF such as Redline synthetic D4, which is listed on their website as 7.5 cst @ 100C.
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Old March 18th, 2006, 17:40   #28
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Should I put G52 in my 2001 Golf?
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Old March 18th, 2006, 18:20   #29
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..........

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Old March 19th, 2006, 12:17   #30
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Brilliant Rob!

I think we'll have to be careful about using the 'G52' label for our lube discussions, as there are G52 gear lubes and G52 automatic transmission fluids.

This info comes from the AMSOIL product lookup for an '05 Jetta TDI. This isn't AMSOIL's data, they get it from one of the auto aftermarket data houses. This is also the data that appears at the quick-lubes and garages that subscribe to these data services.

02J 75W-90 GL4 VW Part number G052 726 A2
02M 75W-90 GL4 VW Part number G052 171 A2
09A (automatic) VW Part number G052 990 A2
01M (automatic) VW Part number G052 162 (-A1) (-A2) clear yellow
09G (automatic) VW Part number G055 025 A2

Thanks to Rob, we know that G052 726 A2 is 6.3 cSt fluid, and definitely not 75W-90.

Viscosity Comparison @ 100 C


(Manual Tranny Fluids)
16.7 = Motul MOTYLGEAR 75-90
15.6 = Redline MT-90 75-90

15.2 = Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W-90
15.2 = Motul Gear 300 75-90
15.0 = Elf Tranself Synthese FE 75-90
14.9 = AMSOIL AGL 80W-90
13.8 = Amsoil MTG 75-90
10.6 = Redline MTL 70-80
9.6 = AMSOIL MTF Synchromesh Trans fluid (GM/Chrysler)

(Automatic Tranny Fluids - except for G052726A2, and Redline D4 dual-use)
8.3 = Honda CVT Fluid
7.6 = Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF
7.5 = AMSOIL Automatic transmission fluid ATF
7.5 = Redline D4 ATF Dexron III / Mercon / API GL-4
7.4 = Mobil 1 Synthetic Dexron/Mercon
7.2 = Redline Synthetic ATF Dexron II / Mercon
7.1 = Mobil 1 Synthetic Multi-vehicle ATF
7.1 = AMSOIL Ford type F auto trans fluid
6.3 = OEM G52 (part numbers G052726A2 / G05272601)

5.5-6 = Ford Mercon SP

The industry trend is toward lower viscosity fluids is engines, transmissions, and differentials to meet fuel mileage requirements. Since only about 12% of the energy from a gallon of fuel is left to turn the wheels, and 6% of that is eaten by aerodynamics, manufacturers are doing what they can to reduce some of the 1.5% transmission loss and 1.5% axle loss (differential) by reworking gearboxes and fluids. Mercon SP and Dexron VI are ‘state of the art’ in the US. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that G052726A2 is the state of the art in Europe.

For the folks running later model cars, the G052726A2 looks to be the best product currently available, as it has the lowest viscosity and presumably will protect the gears to at least a GL-4 level. For folks looking to squeeze more efficiency out of their late model transmission, there doesn’t appear to be much on the market that is lighter and also has GL-4. This might not be a problem, using ATF in our transmissions, as Ford, Mazda, and Saturn (at least) manual transmissions have been lubricated by standard dino Dexron III fluids for years.

The best bet for shifting and highest fuel mileage for us with earlier cars might be the G052726A2. Who wants to put the newer fluid in their earlier tranny and see if the fluid is up to the needs of the earlier hardware? Or, better yet, who want’s to pool money to get some of the fluid lab tested for cold flow, VI, and GL-4 performance? Or - who wants to try Mercon SP?

Andy

Last edited by AndyH; March 19th, 2006 at 12:30.
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