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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old February 23rd, 2005, 03:22   #61
nortones2
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Dan: component numbers for an ohv engine also include drives to the camshaft(s) wherever they are! So, in addition to 8 pushrods (old tech TDI) you need the same number of drives, their ancillaries etc. As for induction, the turbo is in place already- its a given. So any additional measures are not required for induction reasons. Occams razor.
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Old February 23rd, 2005, 08:51   #62
Dan_Ruddock
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I did not include the gears because I also did not include the belt drive sprockets in my analysis (More typing)it is a wash. Push rods are cheap. Yes your point about it is what's common is a good one for standardization reasons. But can you give me a good reason its a bad from an engineering stand point. On the multivalve issue the more air you can put the motor the more fuel also, more power. Centralized injector or spark very good thing. Multivalve is very good reason to put the cams in the head that is what the new honda diesel has. Dan
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Old February 23rd, 2005, 09:03   #63
dieseldorf
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Did you guys know that MOTUL will be one of the first to market with these new lo-SAPS oils!

Quote:
VW 504.00 und 507.00
Quote:


Beschreiben speziell formulierte low SAPS-Öle - Motorenöle mit geringem Schwefel- , Phosphor- und Sulfatascheanteil. Speziell für die neuen Modelle mit WIV und EURO IV-Benzinmotoren bzw. Dieselmotoren mit Rußpartikelfilter.


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Old February 23rd, 2005, 09:52   #64
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Quote:
I will give a real good reason the car company's might go ohc for their diesels !!! MARKETING !!! do you want two or three or four blades on your razor, how many times over sampling does your CD player have we are all suckers for this nonsense. Common folks give me a good engineering reason why an ohv diesel is bad. It is old, low tech, you have to put the cam somewhere, more expensive, all of these don't cut it. Take your choice what would rather have in a low reving diesel, gear drive for the cam like a $100,000 racing engine or a rubber belt. What real problem does ohv create? Dan
Modern VW diesel have no room for marketing folks, the engineers are taking up all the space needed to make the modern engines meet EU4 and Tier II emissions standards. Imagine a pushrod engine operating a central injector and 4 valves...



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Old February 23rd, 2005, 10:08   #65
Drivbiwire
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Quote:
I did not include the gears because I also did not include the belt drive sprockets in my analysis (More typing)it is a wash. Push rods are cheap. Yes your point about it is what's common is a good one for standardization reasons. But can you give me a good reason its a bad from an engineering stand point. On the multivalve issue the more air you can put the motor the more fuel also, more power. Centralized injector or spark very good thing. Multivalve is very good reason to put the cams in the head that is what the new honda diesel has. Dan
The 4 valve 2.0 TDI is a thing of beauty and to a certain extent simplicity in its fucntion.


DB
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Old February 23rd, 2005, 11:30   #66
Dan_Ruddock
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Good point dorf. Hey if people want to start a new thread to tell me I am crazy let them do it. DBW thanks for making a lot of my points valid. Does the 2.0 TDI have a belt? I would not be surprized to see a chain on the honda. It will be interesting to see how long it's common rail pump lasts. I sill maintain that the 8 valve TDI would of been a better more reliable lower maintance without a performance or emmisions sacrifice with pushrods. Mechanicaly injected 911's from the 70's had a belt to drive the injecton pump off the end of one of the cams. I worked for these folks for four years the design had some shortcomings. Multivalve with pushrods Here is a post from another thead that sums up well what happened. Dan
Quote:
Well, one of the reasons for OHC was to have less reciprocating valvetrain mass, and that's not really applicable to a diesel engine. For an in-line engine, an OHC arrangement is less expensive to manufacture, and the pushrods don't get in the way of the intake and exhaust ports. I know of no in-line-arrangement pushrod automotive engines that have been designed in the modern era. (There's still a few hold-overs in production which were designed shortly after the stone age ...) V-type arrangements are a different story, the arrangement lends itself to having the camshaft between the two banks. A Ford pushrod 5.0 is quite a bit more compact than the OHC 4.6.

The original Rabbit diesel engine with the external injector pump really lends itself to having a timing belt. It would be a lot more complicated to drive the external injector pump any other way. This same philosophy applies to the distributor-pump TDI engines. Yes, it could be done with a chain or gears, but $ $ $ would be a lot higher.

It's no longer applicable with the P-D. The chain could be integrated into a passage cast into the front of the block, the way everyone else does it. But it would require the block to be redesigned, and the P-D is based off the same block design as the distributor-pump engines. Result, timing belt!

As for pushrods ... The original Rabbit engine was meant to be a more-or-less common arrangement between gasoline and diesel versions. Pushrods would not have been a good plan for the gasoline version, so out goes that idea.


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Old February 23rd, 2005, 12:16   #67
Drivbiwire
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Sorry dude the fact is Pushrods are not possible due to the flow through head design of the 2.0 4 valve design. Primary reasons pushrods have all together been dropped is because of the increased weight and size of the block as well as moving mass and additional part content.

The 2.0 4valve actuates 2 valves with one cam lobe. The play is taken up by integrated lifters into each of the rocker arm to valve contact points.

What you are not taking into account is that the mass each of the valve springs has to move is limited to just the 1/2 the rocker assembly's total weight.

Funny thing is even Harley Davidson figured out long ago that belt drive is superior to chain drive.

In the following picture you can see that there are only a few wearable parts: Tensioner bearing, Lower guide idler bearing, water pump. Why is it so difficult to replace these items every 100,000 miles?



DB
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Old February 23rd, 2005, 12:41   #68
Dan_Ruddock
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I have never said pushrods are a good idea with a 4 valve head I have seen first hand right next to the dyno the problems it create's. It is very interesting to see it has been done by a small family owned company but I don't want to bash it too much they are good friends of mine. The biggest problem with it is the heavy loading on the push rods(one p rod for two valves)bent pushrod. Belts for a motor cycle great idea, for a diesel engine horrible idea. Belt snaps on a bike your stranded. Diesel engine half of your engine is junk if your lucky. Dan
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Old February 23rd, 2005, 13:08   #69
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

belt snaps on a m/c in the middle of a passing manoever, you die...
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Old February 23rd, 2005, 13:13   #70
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

One of the reasons I stay off the crazy things. Dan
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Old February 23rd, 2005, 13:41   #71
SUNRG
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Dan,

Since the timing belt is on a 100k change interval, are you maintaining that a chain will last indefinitely.

I have never owned a vehicle with a timing chain, but drive chains on bikes and motorcycles all wear and eventually fail if not replaced.

cheers!
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Old February 23rd, 2005, 13:43   #72
dieseldorf
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Timing chains on diesels don't last forever. They stretch, they trash the gears and then everything is out of sync and needs to be replaced....not a minor repair.
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Old February 23rd, 2005, 14:04   #73
Dan_Ruddock
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I have not been around diesels enough to comment on chains on a diesel but I have seen many gassers have the chain last the life of the motor. Yes they need chains, rails and sprockets replaced at the overhaul. The big thing I like about chains is they warn you with noise before they snap. The pump on a diesel is going to add more load to the chain which is a factor, which is why I am curious about the common rail honda pump If it's lasts honda is realy going to have a world beater. Am I right that a common rail pump is driven by other than the chain? Dan
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Old February 23rd, 2005, 14:29   #74
DPM
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

CR-pump takes the place of the VE- pump in your engine. In some, it is on the end of the camshaft, on others seperate. The little Toyota Yaris diesel has it at the end where the vacuum pump resides on a TDI, the Merc CDI has it at the front end. The CR- pump is MUCH easier to drive than a VE pump tho, as it has three sets of pistons and much lighter return springs. Bosch talk about (cant remember the exact figure) a third or a fifth of the loading at full power, with less extremes of drive torque.

camchains have come a long way in recent times- said Yaris diesel has a chain, for example. But it is widely acknowledged that chains do in fact have a finite life...

CR is great, but the pump can be killed by bad fuel as quickly (or even quicker) as a distributor pump. Tolerances are even tighter, and they REALLY don't like dirt and water.
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Old February 23rd, 2005, 15:35   #75
Dan_Ruddock
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

What would be more expensive to repair a destoyed head from a belt failure or a dead cr pump? dan
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