Crank seal replacement

So, i was retiming my motor today and I couldnt get it right so I decided to get the crank pulley off and do it again properly.

I get underneath the car and the front of the motor is wet.....

yes- it looks like the oil seal I put in with 0 miles on it is bad!!! ***??! I installed it using all the correct tools and the crank was not scored... what is going on?

When I read the part number off the seal that was in the car my buddy at the parts counter said to me that was the crank seal for the older AHU motors.... He gave me the one mentioned above with the "b" suffix Could it be possible the crank seal on my 99.5 ALH is the same as the AHU motors?

what ever happened to using a old fashioned "seal puller" tool? The seasoned wrench turners know what I'm talking about. It's all I ever use to do crankshaft and rear main seals on MKII's. I don't see why it still wouldn't work on a TDi engine. ( I have nothing against using the 'correct' tool, I'm just cheap, so I don't want to spend more $$ on tools that won't get much use)

wjbski said:

what ever happened to using a old fashioned "seal puller" tool? The seasoned wrench turners know what I'm talking about. It's all I ever use to do crankshaft and rear main seals on MKII's. I don't see why it still wouldn't work on a TDi engine. ( I have nothing against using the 'correct' tool, I'm just cheap, so I don't want to spend more $$ on tools that won't get much use)

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I know what you're talking about. My 1st TB change, my Dad showed me this 'trick' on the cam seal. I've done 4 since and it worked every time.

Once again, dragging up an old thread.

I needed to replace a crank seal on a customer's car yesterday ALH. I did so by removing the carrier, but left the oil pan in place. I raised only the passenger side of the car in the air, thus getting all the oil to the other side of the pan. Once the screws that go into the carrier are removed, you can break the seal between the carrier and the block and pan by using a prybar. Prett easy all said and done.

aNUT said:

Once again, dragging up an old thread.
I needed to replace a crank seal on a customer's car yesterday ALH. I did so by removing the carrier, but left the oil pan in place. I raised only the passenger side of the car in the air, thus getting all the oil to the other side of the pan. Once the screws that go into the carrier are removed, you can break the seal between the carrier and the block and pan by using a prybar. Prett easy all said and done.

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Sounds like a good idea, initially. This method doesn't make it easy to re-apply the liquid gasket sealant between the pan and the engine. This is just another possible source for leaks.

Two different sizes of slotted screw drivers, hammer, block of wood and a socket are all that are needed once the crank pulley is removed. It's easy, fool-proof and cheap.

i just did all this, and I didn't need anything except for normal hand tools. I did get my dad to make a special tool to tap the seal in place, but it's not necessary - a large socket works just fine.

Sounds like the crank bolt is a special torque-to-yield bolt, anyone know where to get it?

Busguy71 said:

Sounds like the crank bolt is a special torque-to-yield bolt, anyone know where to get it?

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http://www.metalmanparts.com/product.sc?categoryId=37&productId=89
or your friendly local VW dealer...

Yuri.

My turn to bring this one back from the dead - since I get to attempt this task.

However, I'm having problems finding the extraction tool. I assume the crank holder can be done without if I have someone's foot on the brake, and putting the seal back in sounds like the proper socket-approach. But removing it - anyone have a source for such a magical tool?

Try drilling a couple of small holes at opposite ends of the seal and then screw some self-threading sheet metal screws in... then pull on the screws to get the seal out...

If the Crankshaft-Seal-Replacement-Gods are looking at you favorably, it will come out easily...

Good luck,

Yuri.



PS: please let us know how the bolt extraction goes...

Ok... now I'm dragging up an old thread...

I've used the fancy seal puller...I've used sheet metal screws... I've blocked the crankshaft, built my own crank yank...used the spring and springless seals... and here is what I think.

If the seal you are removing is the spring type seal, I am very inclined to remove the flange, polish the running surface of the crank and install the new "E" type silicone seal.

I think you'll run into one big problem if you replace a spring type seal with the same style seal. The "B" style seal will cut a groove into the running surface. If you install another seal in nearly the same location, there is an excellent chance that your seal will cross over, overlap or otherwise NOT SEAL into the groove made by the previous seal. If you use the "B" style, make sure it doesn't hit the same groove by careful measurement.

Second, the "E" style silicone seal can be finicky to install. It's very different stuff than what I'm used to. The seal has a 'memory'. The way I install them is by working the sealing surface with my fingers, pressing it outward to widen the diameter of the seal's running edge. That makes the seal slide on without catching the seal's edge and rolling it over on itself. It doesn't matter if I am removing the flange or using the seal puller. I always use this technique.

Once in place, and by direction of the manufacturer, the seal should be allowed 4 hrs to rest. The 'memory' of the seal slowly and surely closes up against the running surface.

I am in agreement with the 'only doing this job once' crowd... buying $200+ worth of tools and >$10 worth of parts is about senseless.

I don't know who came up with the idea, but someone recently put up a 'tools' thread. There is a deadnuts simple way to build a counterhold. I'll refer you back to Bbarbulo's last picture 4 posts up... take note of the two large bolt holes in the bottom corners of the block...

Two short pieces of 1 or 1 1/2" X 1/4 flat steel stock, a hack saw and a couple of holes drilled in the ends of the bars and you can make the simplest of crank counterholds. Attach to the available threaded holes at the corners of the block and then mount to two of the holes in the sprocket. Just be careful how long the bolts you put into the sprocket are or you'll run into the flange and damage it. Measure the depth of the holes and use appropriate length bolts. Place the bars so that they are approximately at 45 degree angles going up to the sprocket and you'll have a very stout and secure brace.

Last thing... if you remove the flange, use a high temperature hylomar sealant or equivalent.. Reinz or Dirko are two brands... and use it very sparingly... note on the same 'dbarbulo' picture above... as much as is squished outside; An equal amount is inside. You are mating two machined surfaces. Put it on THIN...

If there is anything I appreciate, it is an elegant solution to a vexing problem... Godspeed..

This is what I made years ago.

Ok, here's the po'boy special... There aren't $300 worth of tools, it's compact and the whole kit fits into the smallest Priority Mail box. I've yet to have USPS lose one of those... at least, not yet...

Here is how the crank hold goes on...

All you need to do is bring the engine to TDC, clean out the bolt holes at the corners of the block put the four bolts in finger tight. Use a 3/4" breaker bar,cause if you use 1/2", it will be a 'broken' bar.

I also include the hylomar sealant; keeping in line with the po'boy concept. If you buy the tube, it's $12.50. You use enough of a blob to cover a nickel and the next time you use the tube, it's cured through and through.
Just use what you need and return the tube and counterhold set back to me for the next po'boy.

You could make the tools, but it'd take you an hour. $20 and the shipping,you get the crank bolt, the seal and you borrow the tools and a tube of sealant. Use what you need of the sealant (more does not make it better) and return the tube with my counterhold tools and bolts.

The ALH seal and bolt set are pictured. The AHU/ 1Z set have different seal and bolt. I've got them too.

Tighten the ALH crank bolt to 88 ft lbs + 1/4 turn
Tighten the AHU crank bolt to 66 ft lbs + 1/4 turn
Tighten the flange bolts to 7 ft lbs. No more then that...

awesome post frank!

Boy... talk about trying to out-WingNut the one and only WingNut...

Great contribution !!!!

All the best,

Yuri.

Time to resurrect this thread; I'm doing this procedure on a 2000 NB, ALH. Do I need to take the oil pan all the way off to get the seal carrier/plate/cover off? Anyone had luck swapping the seal w/o taking off the carrier/plate? I have the seal out (no garring, don't worry) and would just as soon not take the plate off thank-you.

I only take the seal carrier out to remove the seal. If you already have it out great. I do use a block of wood to pound the new seal in (lightly, evenly) so I'm not sure how you'll do that otherwise without the seal installer tool (which I just bought).

You don't need to touch the oil pan to pull the carrier (and its really not all that difficult).

I don't have to touch the oil pan....good news. I do see a few bolts coming through the oil pan into the carrier though, I'm assuming those have to go. And I'll need a tube of that special sauce now too....

Thanks beer man.

i used silicone, no problem just dont over do it.

jayb79, I'm assuming you use the black silicone? This may be a moot point depending on the next question:

Beer man - one question of clarification - you say you take the carrier out to pull the seal out. Is putting the seal in with the carrier in place a no-no or do you think that is OK? That is how I'm used to putting in seals (did it that way on my AHU). In lieu of a board, I thought about using the old seal as a spacer and pressing it in using the crank sprocket & bolt. Thoughts?

I think I used the blue gasket maker.

I lay the carrier flat on the ground (piece of cardboard or the like) and lay the new seal in place. then I slowly, evenly, lightly begin to tap it into place. once its seated, I replace the seal carrier onto the front of the engine. Your carrier is still in place so you need the correct tool for installing a seal around the crank nose (or some other ingenuitive way of driving the seal in; which it sounds like you're working on).

There is really no useful content in the above reply. once you're in there you kind of just know what to do.

runonbeer said:

I lay the carrier flat on the ground (piece of cardboard or the like) and lay the new seal in place. then I slowly, evenly, lightly begin to tap it into place. once its seated, I replace the seal carrier onto the front of the engine. Your carrier is still in place so you need the correct tool for installing a seal around the crank nose (or some other ingenuitive way of driving the seal in; which it sounds like you're working on).

There is really no useful content in the above reply. once you're in there you kind of just know what to do.

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Bump from the past since I'm doing this right now. I'm a little concerned with swapping seals in my plastic carrier. Is the plastic going to survive okay?

I was swapping flywheel/clutch and noticed some really light seepage from my rear main and of course the only place I could get a new one today didn't have a carrier with it like OEM VW (just the seal itself). Either I try swapping seals in the plastic carrier or just re-assemble and address the seepage this spring/summer when it warms up outside.

Ive used all three of the special tools described in this thread. Here is my take:

Crank holder "3415": Not impressed. I think there is the risk of breaking the hold bolts. Could be improved with 4 bolts. I recommend metalnerd's crank yank tool

Seal puller "3203" Works good for the old style (rubber/spring) seal, but not so good for the new ptfe seal. Suggest resorting to the old school center punch/sheet metal screw/slide hammer technique. (safe if done VERY carefully as not to scratch the polished crank face)

Seal installer "3265": Works excellent for both old and new style seals and very simple to use.

I updated my "redneck" crank tool. It still fits in a small priority box, and it's not $125... It's a very cost effective loaner.

I think that is the biggest concern for the DIY'er. Some of those tools are nice, but very costly, especially for someone that does it just once in a great while.

Looks like I am going to be doing a front crank seal on my 00 golf.

Just curious, once one has locked the crank by whatever mean/tools, any reason not to use an air wrench to loosen the bolt? Seems it would make this much easier.

If you have a gun that will bust that bolt loose, I'd like to know where you got it.

runonbeer said:

If you have a gun that will bust that bolt loose, I'd like to know where you got it.

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And how many guys had to hang on to it while it was working its magic...

All kidding aside, it's on there really really well... if you can get it off with a impact wrench there's a very good chance it wasn't on properly in the first place.

But, absolutely no harm in trying. It's the folks that *tighten* it with an impact that usually have the issues.

A friend of mine used his Ingersall Rand to remove that bolt on an A4... actually, he says he used it again today... on his B4's crankshaft bolt... (he's had that impact gun for almost 20 years... maybe they don't build them the way they used to...)

Yuri

Actually, I used my gun to take it off about a week ago. I torqued it back on today (no, not using the gun) to 66ft lbs and 90 degrees. Whee, my B4V is mobile again! And yes, I used that same gun at a timing belt GTG up here a couple of years ago to replace the crank seal on my ALH Jetta.

If the impact gun is properly serviced (grease the hammers once in a blue moon, oil the air motor somewhat more often), I have never met a crankshaft pulley bolt (on a car or light truck) that my 20 y/o IR gun won't take off. Newer IR composite guns are even more powerful.

Caveat, I have my compressor cranked up to max out at 130psi, and my gun doesn't have a hope in heck of getting that bolt out if the pressure is down around 100-110 psi. Also, using an extension in between the socket and the gun is a sure way to eat up torque and have the bolt refuse to come out.

Some have postulated that using a gun to remove crank bolts runs the risk of fracturing the nose of the crank, but in the real world, this does not happen (I have removed literally hundreds upon hundreds of crankshaft bolts on domestic, European and Japanese cars and trucks without any such kind of issue).