TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

ymz · Oct 1, 2007

So I guess my question is...

Do the Delvac-1 numbers show that this oil is worth the extra cost over the Rotella ????

Yuri.

wjdell · Oct 1, 2007

Not for you - Although the best UOA's above 13k have been Delvac. Its not your Fe numbers that are that impresssive - its the other metals..

gstdi · Oct 1, 2007

Hi Guys,

First UOA - factory fill, "break-in oil."

SUNRG · Oct 1, 2007

phaser said:
SUNG, who did this UOA?

CAT

silverbox - i posted the conversion tables here somewhere. 70 translates to just over 1% soot.

wjdell - i had the EGR cooler replaced before this ELF LLX 507 run, so as both a flush and to remove any potential contaminants introduced during the EGR cooler swap i...

changed the oil before bringing my car in for the EGR work to the cheapest PD approved oil available Castrol TXT
then EGR cooler was replaced
then with ~300 miles on the Castrol TXT i drained it and installed the ELF Solaris LLX 507

since i both drain and extract my oil changes remove as much of the old oil as is reasonably possible. i add roughly 4.7 liters to bring the oil level back up to the top bend on the dipstick after a change.

i'm less than 18,000 miles away from 100,000 miles. should be there in roughly 10 months. when i do my TB i'm going to take loads of cam pics. my PD is one of the few i know of in NA that's run VW approved 30 weight oils for 90+% of it's first 100,000 miles.

wjdell · Oct 1, 2007

gstdi - I would say these figures look very normal

OsirisTDI · Oct 1, 2007

gstdi said:
Hi Guys,

First UOA - factory fill, "break-in oil."

Why did you change the oil at initial 2.5k miles? Your first OCI is at 5k.

dhdenney · Oct 2, 2007

OsirisTDI said:
Why did you change the oil at initial 2.5k miles? Your first OCI is at 5k.

He does not make any indication that it was changed.

gstdi · Oct 2, 2007

Correct - just took a sample to test the theory that break-in oil is some super spectacular mystery oil.

glandpuck · Oct 6, 2007

Opinions on Analysis Please

2006 Jetta Extended Build TDI DSG, Pack 2, Blackstone labs. Mid-stream catch from oil pan after car driven to operating temp. Original oil, 10K and 20K changes were Castrol TXT from VW dealer. Miles = 30701. Miles on oil (none added) = 10173. New oil put in was Elf Excellium DID 5W 40. Diesel fuel = ULSD and 90% of time Stanadyne Performance Formula is added.
Aluminum = 8
Chromium = 3
Iron = 93
Copper = 16
Lead = 17
Tin = 1
Molybdenum = 13
Nickel = 2
Manganese = 1
Silver and Titanium = 0
Potassium = 9
Boron = 39
Silicon = 9
Sodium = 10
Calcium = 3087
Magnesium = 22
Phosphorus = 874
Zinc = 1109
Barium = 0
SUS Viscosity = 68.6
Flashpoint = 415
Fuel % < 0.5%
Antifreeze = 0%
Water = 0%
Insolubles = 0.3%

What do you think?

Thanks for your tme.

wjdell · Oct 6, 2007

Manganese - that we do not see to often
Lead - 17 - ding ding ding
Copper 16 - same here
Chromium - 3 like Mn

Fe is high but not as high as lead and copper. I do not know if 10k is serving you well at this point - what recs did OA make.

SUNRG · Oct 6, 2007

if it were my TDI - i'd...

change the air filter to a type A (winter - with pre-filter membrane) OEM filter
the week before doing #3 (below) i'd do an italian tune-up (firmly accelorate until the RPM needle crosses 4000 during numerous shifts - stay safe and observe all posted speed limits )
then i'd change the oil very early this time as a inherited contaminants flush (after as few as 2000 miles or less)
- i'd use an oil extractor if possible during the oil change to suck out all oil in the oil filter housing and the plumbing and oil cooler beneath it
finally, i'd install new oil & filter, enjoy my TDI, send another sample to a lab after 10k miles

this is what i would do. it is not my recommendation to anyone. cheers!

TornadoRed · Oct 6, 2007

glandpuck said:
Miles = 30701. Miles on oil (none added) = 10173. New oil put in was Elf Excellium DID 5W 40. Diesel fuel = ULSD and 90% of time Stanadyne Performance Formula is added.
Aluminum = 8
Chromium = 3
Iron = 93
Copper = 16
Lead = 17
(snip)
Silicon = 9
Sodium = 10

SUS Viscosity = 68.6
Flashpoint = 415
Fuel % < 0.5%
Antifreeze = 0%
Water = 0%
Insolubles = 0.3%

What do you think?

I think the soot is still okay at 0.3%, and the trace contaminants are not excessively high.

It is not a particularly good UOA, but considering the number of miles on the engine it is not terrible.

If you download the Oil Analyzers Guide, it lists Normal, Abnormal, and Excessive levels of trace metals. All the ones in your sample except:
1) copper at 16 ppm is outside the Normal range by 1 ppm.
2) lead at 17 ppm is outside the Normal range by 2 ppm.

All the others are Normal. Silicon and sodium are also normal.

Again, not the best but certainly nothing to freak out about. I think it is a fine baseline analysis, so I recommend testing again at 40k miles and 50k miles to see what the trend is.

Chasee · Oct 7, 2007

Wait, I thought the averages for Glandpuck would be the same as the averages for mine and for GSTDI? If so, the Iron, Copper, Aluminum, and Lead would be considered very high.

dhdenney · Oct 7, 2007

I think this just kinda reaffirms that the TXT wasn't really that great of an oil. Does anyone agree with that?

glandpuck · Oct 9, 2007

Thank you all for your comments regarding my oil analysis. Blackstone advised to change the oil at 8000 mile interval rather than 10K. On my vehicle, since it is the extended (2007) build, when you lift out the oil filter, it opens a drain hole and all the oil in the filter compartment drains down. I then did a wipe out of this housing with a rag. This time, I put in an MANN oil filter and as I said, Elf Excellium DID. I drive the accelerator pedal hard, revving always into the 3's and 4's, but my wife drives it like a sponge cake, almost never getting over 2800 r's. I am not sure at this point that I want to invest in an oil extractor since the oil is so easy to change driven up on ramps. I am kind of leaning against doing an early oil change at say 3K miles. I would like to have the info on how protective the Elf oil is and also to find out if the numbers are coming down. The car drives great.

SUNRG · Oct 9, 2007

FWIW - keeping your current fill in for a full 10k will probably be fine. however, since 20%+ of the old oil's contaminants are inherited by the new oil, this next OCI is a bit of an uphill battle for the DID.

for example. i personally feel 30ppm Fe is a good oil performance benchmark. if a 10k OCI has 30ppm Fe or less the oil is protecting against Fe wear extremely well. if the Fe concentration doesn't reach 30ppm until 15k miles the oil is protecting exceedingly well.

for example, during my last run of ELF Solaris LLX 50700 the Fe concentration after ~14,200miles was 26ppm. truly extraordinary protection.

in contrast, the starting Fe concentration of your current fill of ELF Excellium DID 50501 is approximately 23ppm (roughly 20% of the old oil's 93ppm Fe).

if you were to apply the 30ppm benchmark to your current OCI, and even if DID reduced your wear rate down to 3ppm / 1000 miles, the current oil's Fe concentration would reach 30ppm Fe in 2000 miles:

23ppm - Fe inherited from previous oil fill
1ppm - Fe concentration of new/virgin ELF Excellium DID
6ppm - Fe produced by wear over 2000 miles
= 30ppm Fe concentration

this 30ppm Fe benchmark is just my own personal benchmark that i've recently settled on for oil performance. i will also look at other considerations - 30ppm Fe is just one benchmark that will determine if an oil gets to stay in my TDI or if it gets drained.

as always, please take this and all of my posts with grains of salt

.

glandpuck · Oct 9, 2007

Thanks to SUNRG for an excellent illustration. I will do some thinking and then probably change the oil early and re-analyze. I have an excellent source for the Elf oil, so time and cost are minimal. Thank you again.

tommyt · Oct 9, 2007

My 1st UOA

Here is what my first one looks like. Next one will be with GC 0-30 and I will be interested to see the difference.

The slightly high fuel could be caused by faulty Coolant Temp sensor - it was reading low and fuel economy was low too. But, I was doing quite a bit of stop and go driving, starting and stopping 20x/day while making sales calls.

TornadoRed · Oct 9, 2007

tommyt said:
Here is what my first one looks like. Next one will be with GC 0-30 and I will be interested to see the difference.

The slightly high fuel could be caused by faulty Coolant Temp sensor - it was reading low and fuel economy was low too. But, I was doing quite a bit of stop and go driving, starting and stopping 20x/day while making sales calls.

That's a wonderful UOA -- the iron is not elevated, it's completely average for a fully-broken-in TDI. The Rotella T worked just fine, I'll be surprised if the GC does as well.

ymz · Oct 9, 2007

tommyt said:
Next one will be with GC 0-30 and I will be interested to see the difference.

Keep in mind that when you do an oil change, there's still quite a bit of the "old" oil in the engine, and you won't be running "pure" (more-or-less) GC during the next oil change cycle. I would only feel secure trying to determine the performance of a particular oil in my engine after the 3rd oil change (with the same fluid)... I know many people change oil brands often, but I don't see the point, as some of the additives may conflict between the different fluids...

Yuri.

bioduse · Oct 10, 2007

ymz said:
. . . as some of the additives may conflict between the different fluids...Yuri.

these fluids "may" or "do" conflict?

how often (how many miles) do you use

in between changes?

-

Honeydew · Oct 10, 2007

Here are the results of a CAT UOA of Elf 5W-40 captured mid-stream from an oil pan drain after 7000 miles. Car mileage= 72K. Previous oil was not Elf.
Wear metals (ppm):
Al 3, Ca 2187, Cr 1, Cu 2, Fe 27, Pb 1, Mg 64, Mo 19, P 850, K 1, Si 2, Na 6, Sn 0, Zn 1025

Oil condition/particle count (ct/ml):
water neg, antifreeze neg, fuel neg, viscosity @100C 12.4

No soot, TBN, or other info was given. Any comments or analysis? Thanks

SUNRG · Oct 10, 2007

tommyt - how was the sample taken? overall it's a good UOA.

bioduse - IMHO "may" is the correct answer.

honeydew - UOA looks good. since this was a change from a previous oil the next UOA should be a better representation of how well DID performs in your TDI/operating conditions.

i also like that the oil Fe concentration is below my 30ppm benchmark. if it were my TDI - i'd run it to at least 8000 miles on this fill to see if Fe concentration stays below 30ppm.

IMHO...

a healthy stock 1.9L TDI engine that's broken-in (60,000+ miles)
running a high quality VW approved oil
with good air filtration (well installed OEM type-A winter filter)
and high quality clean fuel

should be expected to go 10,000 miles or more before reaching an Fe concentration of 30ppm.

my old benchmark was 40ppm, but having now seen a number of UOAs where Fe concentration was 30ppm or less at 10,000 miles i personally feel that this is my gold stardard. my platinum standard is 30ppm or less at 15,000 miles.

cheers!

Honeydew · Oct 10, 2007

Thanks for the analysis SUNRG. At the time of this sample I changed oils again, to M1 TDT due to local availability. I plan to stick with this oil. Also installed a DG oil bypass filter and CAT fuel filter. I will post intermittant UOAs for opinions on OC intervals with and performance of the bypass filter.

SUNRG · Oct 10, 2007

Honeydew said:
Also installed a DG oil bypass filter and CAT fuel filter. I will post intermittant UOAs for opinions on OC intervals with and performance of the bypass filter.

great. keep in mind that the Fe concentration is affected by bypass systems since the engine displacement stays the same and the oil system capacity is increased by roughly 20%.

30ppm Fe concentration in an ~5L oil system is the same as
25ppm Fe concentration in an ~6L oil system

5 x 30 = 150
6 x 25 = 150

so since the wear metal concentration in your new system will be diluted (good) because of your bypass install, if your Fe is 25 at 10,000 miles that's wear equal to a stock setup with 30ppm Fe at 10,000 miles.

you can still use the 30ppm Fe concentration as a benchmark for changing your oil and filters - and it should take you longer to reach that point with the increased oil capacity that results from the bypass system install.

cheers!

TornadoRed · Oct 10, 2007

Honeydew said:
Here are the results of a CAT UOA of Elf 5W-40 captured mid-stream from an oil pan drain after 7000 miles. Car mileage= 72K. Previous oil was not Elf.
Wear metals (ppm):
Al 3, Ca 2187, Cr 1, Cu 2, Fe 27, Pb 1, Mg 64, Mo 19, P 850, K 1, Si 2, Na 6, Sn 0, Zn 1025
[snip)
viscosity @100C 12.4

The viscosity sheared down to just slightly less than a 40-weight oil. But the wear numbers are fine. I think it would be good for a full 10k miles, with another UOA at that point.

TornadoRed · Oct 10, 2007

SUNRG said:
i also like that the oil Fe concentration is below my 30ppm benchmark. if it were my TDI - i'd run it to at least 8000 miles on this fill to see if Fe concentration stays below 30ppm.

IMHO...

a healthy stock 1.9L TDI engine that's broken-in (60,000+ miles)

running a high quality VW approved oil

with good air filtration (well installed OEM type-A winter filter)

and high quality clean fuel

should be expected to go 10,000 miles or more before reaching an Fe concentration of 30ppm.

my old benchmark was 40ppm, but having now seen a number of UOAs where Fe concentration was 30ppm or less at 10,000 miles i personally feel that this is my gold stardard. my platinum standard is 30ppm or less at 15,000 miles.

Any oil that can meet your gold or platinum test is good enough to go another 5k miles at least.

But I think your old benchmark was fine... in fact, as long as the iron is <50 ppm, the TBN is still high enough, and the soot not excessive after 10k miles, a TDI owner shouldn't be concerned. At the end of the day, a TDI with an iron wear level of 30 ppm per 10k miles will not last any longer than one with an iron wear level of 50 ppm -- both will run 500k miles or longer or until the rest of the car falls apart.

SUNRG · Oct 10, 2007

TornadoRed said:
Any oil that can meet your gold or platinum test is good enough to go another 5k miles at least.

But I think your old benchmark was fine... in fact, as long as the iron is <50 ppm, the TBN is still high enough, and the soot not excessive after 10k miles, a TDI owner shouldn't be concerned. At the end of the day, a TDI with an iron wear level of 30 ppm per 10k miles will not last any longer than one with an iron wear level of 50 ppm -- both will run 500k miles or longer or until the rest of the car falls apart.

first, i believe you're probably correct. this is exactly why i don't feel the added expense and complexity of a bypass filter stock 1.9 & 2.0L TDIs is justifyable.

however, the point / goal is not to reach 500k, it's to enjoy optimal performance until and possibly beyond 500k. that's no small feet.

IMHO - identifying the oil that optimizes wear protection, performance and fuel economy in your engine and operating conditions is worthwhile.

tommyt · Oct 10, 2007

Many thanks for all the comments on my UOA.

SUNRG - I pump out the oil using an inexpensive Harbor Freight pump (currently $20) attached to a glass jug. That keeps the pump clean. Half way through, I substituted a small bottle to pull the UOA sample. Cap size is the same, so it is easy.

wjdell · Oct 10, 2007

I did a SUNRG today -

Definition
SUNRG = when you get every drop out, cooler, filter housing and my prelube sump.

2nd OC of 507 and I expect excellent results - will post them ASAP - 3/08.

TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

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