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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old Today, 00:02   #2176
pkhoury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
If you're running significant range on a BEV in a rural area, you'll want to install a 240 volt EVSE to get faster home charging. Tesla's own EVSE is capable of doing 40 or 80 amps at 240 volts - 9.6 or 19.2 kW, which is a hell of a lot faster than the 12 amps that you'll usually get off of 120 volts, for 1.44 kW.
Wouldn't it still take over a day to fully charge the battery up to 100% capacity (or at least 100% as reported to the consumer)? I also wonder what the cost would be, based on electricity being about 12-13 cents a kilowatt hour.

Quote:

That said, the majority of the US population (although using different measurement methods of urban vs. rural) has been urban since the 1920 census, and in the 2010 census, was 80.7% of the population - so rural isn't mainstream. (The method of determining urban vs. rural population changed in 1950 to bias things more towards rural, and it changed again in 2000 (not sure of the effect, but it might bias towards urban.)
I suppose that makes sense; it'd be interesting so see what percentage of the whole US population does < or = 20 miles a day, > 20 miles, >100, and >400. Even for those in suburban/urban areas, I have a feeling that a lot more miles than average would also negate the benefits of an electric vehicle. In my case, I only need to stop to get fuel, or a bathroom break (which takes between 1 and 4 minutes, depending on whether I use a rest stop or the shoulder).
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Old Today, 02:38   #2177
bhtooefr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkhoury View Post
Wouldn't it still take over a day to fully charge the battery up to 100% capacity (or at least 100% as reported to the consumer)? I also wonder what the cost would be, based on electricity being about 12-13 cents a kilowatt hour.
So, the biggest battery currently available in a production electric car is the 100 kWh battery option for the Tesla Model S and X. Assuming that 100% of the stated capacity is used (it isn't, for battery longevity reasons)...

At 19.2 kW (80 amps), that would take approximately 5.2 hours to charge (note that the rate of charge may taper off at the end, increasing that time some). This is the maximum charge rate for a Tesla, if you've got a 100 A circuit and the High Power Wall Connector.

At 11.5 kW (48 amps), that would take approximately 8.7 hours (also, the lower the rate of charge relative to the battery size, the less tapering). This is what a single-charger-equipped Tesla can handle. You can do this on a 60 A circuit with the High Power Wall Connector.

At 9.6 kW (40 amps), that would take approximately 10.4 hours. This is what the included Mobile Connector can handle on a 50 A circuit.

At 7.2 kW (30 amps, common rating for aftermarket EVSEs and public L2 charging), that would take approximately 13.9 hours.

At 3.6 kW (15 amps, common in cheap 240 volt EVSEs marketed for short-range cars or PHEVs), that would take 27.8 hours - there's your "over a day" to charge. However, you're probably not using an EVSE rated that low with a Tesla.

At 1.44 kW (120 volts, 12 amps), that would take 69.4 hours.

The general idea is, if you can get your daily usage recharged overnight, that's seen as acceptable for the home charging infrastructure.
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Last edited by bhtooefr; Today at 02:45.
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Old Today, 06:21   #2178
pkhoury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
If you're running significant range on a BEV in a rural area, you'll want to install a 240 volt EVSE to get faster home charging. Tesla's own EVSE is capable of doing 40 or 80 amps at 240 volts - 9.6 or 19.2 kW, which is a hell of a lot faster than the 12 amps that you'll usually get off of 120 volts, for 1.44 kW.
Wouldn't it still take over a day to fully charge the battery up to 100% capacity (or at least 100% as reported to the consumer)? I also wonder what the cost would be, based on electricity being about 12-13 cents a kilowatt hour.

Quote:

That said, the majority of the US population (although using different measurement methods of urban vs. rural) has been urban since the 1920 census, and in the 2010 census, was 80.7% of the population - so rural isn't mainstream. (The method of determining urban vs. rural population changed in 1950 to bias things more towards rural, and it changed again in 2000 (not sure of the effect, but it might bias towards urban.)
I suppose that makes sense; it'd be interesting so see what percentage of the whole US population does < or = 20 miles a day, > 20 miles, >100, and >400. Even for those in suburban/urban areas, I have a feeling that a lot more miles than average would also negate the benefits of an electric vehicle. In my case, I only need to stop to get fuel, or a bathroom break (which takes between 1 and 4 minutes, depending on whether I use a rest stop or the shoulder).
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2004 Golf GLS 5MT -
Malone Stage 4, VNT17, DC Stage 2 clutch, buzzken 2.5" straight pipe, MFA cluster swap, dieselgeek Panzer plate and short shifter, Bosal towbar, Tekonsha P3 brake controller, Hopkins short-proof trailer light converter
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Old Today, 06:38   #2179
pkhoury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
So, the biggest battery currently available in a production electric car is the 100 kWh battery option for the Tesla Model S and X. Assuming that 100% of the stated capacity is used (it isn't, for battery longevity reasons)...

At 19.2 kW (80 amps), that would take approximately 5.2 hours to charge (note that the rate of charge may taper off at the end, increasing that time some). This is the maximum charge rate for a Tesla, if you've got a 100 A circuit and the High Power Wall Connector.
Wow. That's a lot of amperage going through that battery. And here I thought 12A going to a SLA pack I built was fast.

So let me know if I'm calculating this correctly.

80 amps x 240 volts = 19,200 watts

5.2 x 19,200 = 99840 / 1000 = 99.84kWh

99.84kWh x $0.12 = $11.98

Let's say the range is 250 miles per full charge. So $11.98 / 250 miles = 0.04792 (0.05 rounded). So if my calculations are correct, the Tesla would cost about a penny per mile cheaper than my TDI currently costs me, based on my electrical co-op charging around 12 cents a kWh on average (since we used electricity for everything where we live - no propane, natural gas, kerosene, etc).

Quote:

At 11.5 kW (48 amps), that would take approximately 8.7 hours (also, the lower the rate of charge relative to the battery size, the less tapering). This is what a single-charger-equipped Tesla can handle. You can do this on a 60 A circuit with the High Power Wall Connector.

At 9.6 kW (40 amps), that would take approximately 10.4 hours. This is what the included Mobile Connector can handle on a 50 A circuit.

At 7.2 kW (30 amps, common rating for aftermarket EVSEs and public L2 charging), that would take approximately 13.9 hours.

At 3.6 kW (15 amps, common in cheap 240 volt EVSEs marketed for short-range cars or PHEVs), that would take 27.8 hours - there's your "over a day" to charge. However, you're probably not using an EVSE rated that low with a Tesla.

At 1.44 kW (120 volts, 12 amps), that would take 69.4 hours.
I calculated for 120V @ 12A, and the cost would be $11.99, a penny more. So it seems to be roughly the same. I wonder what the cost would be in states like California, where there are tiers based on total numbers of kWh used each month (I was always in tier 3 or 4, which was more than $0.12/kWh).
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2004 Golf GLS 5MT -
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2005 Jetta Wagon GLS - Malone Stage 4, VNT17, MFA cluster swap, Panzer Plate
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Old Today, 06:56   #2180
pkhoury
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I'm also still wondering about towing, but I think this article summed a lot of it up. I can't deal with 17 hours of charging at Supercharger stations for 23 hours of driving, while towing a tiny trailer:

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-...a-trailer.html

The writer of this blurb also seemed to drive a lot slower than I do. I usually tow doing 70-79mph, and in a TDI (and with a load ranging from empty, 730 pounds to full, 2800 pounds), I get about 26-33mpg (depending on trip duration and things like headwinds, what seemed to affect the Tesla owner in this article).
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2004 Golf GLS 5MT -
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2005 Jetta Wagon GLS - Malone Stage 4, VNT17, MFA cluster swap, Panzer Plate
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Old Today, 06:57   #2181
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Don't forget, that's assuming you're using up the entire battery.
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Old Today, 07:47   #2182
nwdiver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkhoury View Post
based on my electrical co-op charging around 12 cents a kWh on average
If you're in a rural area with a little space to spare solar might be a good option. It's ridiculously cheap now. A co-worker just purchased a 11kW system for $7k. That's ~$5k after the tax credit. The average cost of electricity over the 20 year life of the system will be ~$0.015/kWh. 11kW of solar will generate ~17,000 kWh/yr in Texas.

Texas is a great place for grid-tied solar. It's got a lot of sun and they have a de-regulated electric market. Since daytime power is currently more valuable than night time power it's possible to get paid more for the excess energy you export during the day than they charge for what you import at night.
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Old Today, 08:50   #2183
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Yeah, Texas gets fantastic insolation. I'm a little disappointed that the Maine public utilities commission just decided to phase out net-metering over the next 15 years. But even considering the phase out and Maine's northern latitude, residential solar is still profitable here.
I'm surprised we haven't yet seen some sort of small travel trailer with auxiliary battery storage built in.
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Old Today, 10:00   #2184
kjclow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkhoury View Post
I suppose that makes sense; it'd be interesting so see what percentage of the whole US population does < or = 20 miles a day, > 20 miles, >100, and >400. Even for those in suburban/urban areas, I have a feeling that a lot more miles than average would also negate the benefits of an electric vehicle.
I think one of the reasons that the batteries take such a hit in either cold of winter or heat of summer is the amount of time that the car is sitting in traffic. If the average commute is only 20 miles per day, I wonder how much time that commute takes. For me, my 7 mile commute now takes anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes depending on time. If there's something going on to block the main routes, I've had that 7 miles take 90 minutes.
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Old Today, 11:12   #2185
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At least in winter, with a very low traffic commute, but a short trip (about 5 miles), I see a colossal fuel economy hit on my Prius due to having to start the ICE for cabin heating.

Summer, OTOH, I don't see much of a hit unless I'm stopping every couple of miles to do something.

There'll be a degree of commonality here with EV behavior, at least...
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Old Today, 12:07   #2186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkhoury View Post

So let me know if I'm calculating this correctly.

80 amps x 240 volts = 19,200 watts

5.2 x 19,200 = 99840 / 1000 = 99.84kWh

99.84kWh x $0.12 = $11.98

Let's say the range is 250 miles per full charge. So $11.98 / 250 miles = 0.04792 (0.05 rounded). So if my calculations are correct, the Tesla would cost about a penny per mile cheaper than my TDI currently costs me, based on my electrical co-op charging around 12 cents a kWh on average (since we used electricity for everything where we live - no propane, natural gas, kerosene, etc).

Keep in mind that 12 cents/kWh may be your base rate. Extra fees such as delivery, distribution, transmission, local access, etc may apply. As I mentioned earlier, my base rate last month was 3.9 cents but my net cost worked out to 9.6 cents after fees & taxes. Here's my latest bill:



The poco credited $120 from the previous period and charged everything again. The energy charge for February was only $29.48 but with fees & taxes - $73.09. That disparity between what electricity costs and what we actually pay drives me nuts.

This may be the first that I've agreed with nwdiver. If you use electricity for everything, you probably are the perfect candidate for solar.
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