I need a new camshaft?

Lloydw

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2005 TDI Passat 100,000 miles.
Does any one have a good report on their new camshaft? Mileage? I'm not interested in lots of power. Need help in where to get a good one. Thanks Lloyd
 

Whitbread

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Both Frank and Colt have great products that will last a lifetim. Mileage should remain unchanged, however you may find pulling the torsion value back to -3 to -4 will help pull out even more mileage.

I've inspected 4 Colt's in b5.5's that are over 20K on them and they all look great. I haven't had the chance to see one of Frank's cams after some miles, but I'm sure they're performing well also.
 

Whitbread

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You could buy an OEM BHW camshaft and do the Frank06 bearing oiling mods...
...And replace it again in 100K miles. It's not the bearings that wear out, it's the valve lobes themselves because the profiles are wrong. Put a Frank or Colt in there and be done with it. The physical differences between the cams is minimal. None of my customers have been able to tell the difference with a BEW aftermarket cam in their BHW. While you're doing all this, there's no excuse not to tune the car. They drive soooooo nice tuned up.
 

vwztips

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2nd that ^^^^^^^
 

tikal

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I have Frank's stage II cam installed this past February so too early to tell about wear out and durability. Performance wise I have no complaints. Very smooth operation as far as I can tell. As a full disclosure this is my first B5 so I do not have a previous similar point of reference. MPG is ok but my torsion value is set at 0 right now (see my other thread on the topic).
 

abctdi

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...And replace it again in 100K miles. It's not the bearings that wear out, it's the valve lobes themselves because the profiles are wrong.
I never said the bearings wear out (although some are damaged)...the mod allows more oil to the lobes/followers.
So you are claiming that besides the poor cam design, the oiling of the lobes is just fine? I wonder why frank06 would offer such an upgrade?
IIRC the lobes being too narrow in order to accomodate the injector lobe was the main fault, not the profile. Sure, changing the profile will help...by reducing jerk (the 3rd derivative).
Another reason for early wear was when vw sold us 5w-30 505.01 oil and said not to worry.
I think the BHW injector lobe provides more fuel due to the bigger turbo and slightly bigger displacement. The stage 2s may make up for this with a bit more lift.
 
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thundershorts

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the oil and possible extreme temps might have a lot to do with cam failure. Most feel that the 5w30 was not suited to the engine.
 

Whitbread

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Frank's bearing mods are great, but more oil isn't going to fix an improperly ground cam. The ramp angles are too steep for the size of the lobe, but mainly there's a .015" bump just as the ramp starts from the base circle. That bump is normally only on a solid lifter cam to take up valve lash but someone at VW screwed up big time on that one. On a hydraulic follower setup, all it does is beat the lifter. The 5w30 oil surely doesn't help, but there's no magic cure for an engineering goof.

The injector lobe differences are less than ~.015" between the bew and the bhw. That's a very negligible amount.
 

DeliveryValve

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Frank's bearing mods are great, but more oil isn't going to fix an improperly ground cam. The ramp angles are too steep for the size of the lobe, but mainly there's a .015" bump just as the ramp starts from the base circle. That bump is normally only on a solid lifter cam to take up valve lash but someone at VW screwed up big time on that one. On a hydraulic follower setup, all it does is beat the lifter. The 5w30 oil surely doesn't help, but there's no magic cure for an engineering goof.

The injector lobe differences are less than ~.015" between the bew and the bhw. That's a very negligible amount.
A .015" difference is negligible on the cam's performance? I think that's a lot when we are talking about cams. Even the chamfer is .015" and once that's gone the cam is toast.



.
 
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Whitbread

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A .015" difference is negligible on the cam's performance? The chamfer is .015" and once that's gone the cam is toast.



.
On the injector lobe, not the valve lobes. The next time I talk to Geoff I'll ask him for the exact measurements but I know it was barely anything on the injector lobe.

The valve lobes are another story and Paul posted the lift/duration chart recently for them.
 
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DeliveryValve

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On the injector lobe, not the valve lobes. The next time I talk to Geoff I'll ask him for the exact measurements but I know it was barely anything on the injector lobe.

The valve lobes are another story and Paul posted the lift/duration chart recently for them.
I take it the BHW is .015" taller on the injector lobe than the BEW? That still sounds like alot.

Regarding the valve lobes, are the specs exactly the same between the OE BHW and OE BEW cams?


.
 

abctdi

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Frank's bearing mods are great, but more oil isn't going to fix an improperly ground cam. The ramp angles are too steep for the size of the lobe, but mainly there's a .015" bump just as the ramp starts from the base circle. That bump is normally only on a solid lifter cam to take up valve lash but someone at VW screwed up big time on that one. On a hydraulic follower setup, all it does is beat the lifter. The 5w30 oil surely doesn't help, but there's no magic cure for an engineering goof.

The injector lobe differences are less than ~.015" between the bew and the bhw. That's a very negligible amount.
Good to know just how badly vw designed this cam;
poor oiling
narrow lobes
extra bump in lobe, which I had not heard of before now

No wonder why they are now dropping like flys...including mine which has at least one missing chamfer. This is why the passat is no longer daily use, once or twice a week until fixed.
 

Whitbread

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I take it the BHW is .015" taller on the injector lobe than the BEW? That still sounds like alot.

Regarding the valve lobes, are the specs exactly the same between the OE BHW and OE BEW cams?
Something along those lines. Don't hold me to my memory but I know it's less than .015" which isn't much considering the injector is bypassing the majority of the fuel pumped. Even with a tune, you're not using anywhere near the full pressure stroke of the injector.

I don't know if there's lift difference on the OE cams. Feel free to call Geoff at 604-856-3571 and he'll be more than happy to answer any and all of your technical questions and give answers as to why he's using the BEW profile in the BHW.


Good to know just how badly vw designed this cam;
poor oiling
narrow lobes
extra bump in lobe, which I had not heard of before now

No wonder why they are now dropping like flys...including mine which has at least one missing chamfer. This is why the passat is no longer daily use, once or twice a week until fixed.
Yeah, VW screwed up pretty bad on the PD cams. No offense to the good people on this forum, but I still read about people refusing to believe a design issue with the OE cams. I wouldn't have a pile of 20 catastrophically munched cams here with anywhere from 55K-200K on them if there was only an incorrect oil usage issue. A 5w-30 synthetic oil won't put holes in multiple lifters in 100K. It may slightly increase wear over a 5w-40 oil, but it's not going to cause premature total failure.
 

Lug_Nut

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My factory BHW cam had slight loss of chamfer evident at the valve lobe tips at 170K miles. It was replaced with another factory BHW cam and followers.
F.W.I.W.: my 1Z, AHU cams were equally worn and were replaced (at much lower purchase cost I'll admit) at 175k and 180k.
No, I don't buy the poor 505.01 lube theory, nor the narrow width theory of PD cam wear.
If you choose to buy a BRM cam because it's less expensive than the factory BHW cam, I'll fully understand the decision.
 

abctdi

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Less width means less contact area, which means more psi between the lobe and follower. It's not a theory it's a fact. That was the intended purpose of the 505.01 spec, to provide better protection against this design.
 

Whitbread

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Less width means less contact area, which means more psi between the lobe and follower. It's not a theory it's a fact. That was the intended purpose of the 505.01 spec, to provide better protection against this design.
And it's a fact that no super special oil can cover up a huge design problem. I have numerous customers from TDI club that use nothing but the 505.01 oil, mann filters, use frost heaters, etc, etc, and still have a munched cam at 100-120K. I had a mk5 come in here not long ago that's been run on 15-40 rotella dino oil it's whole life (old farmer) and at 200K his cam looked like the usual ones I see running VW spec oil at 120K.
 

abctdi

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Yeah, looks like the 505.01 did not succeed in it's intended purpose. I stuck to it for warranty purposes, but the 60k was just too short. I discovered the missing chamfer at 90k, so 100k warr would have covered me. Hence, the KIA.
Been using M1 TDT or R T6 after the warranty expired.
 

outthere

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how does one discover the need for a new camshaft, e.g. how is the engine performance impacted?
 

Eric Odle

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how does one discover the need for a new camshaft, e.g. how is the engine performance impacted?
I've been lurking and searching to try and figure that one out myself... Fortunately inspecting it is not too difficult a process, as that seems to be the best way to know for sure.
 

aja8888

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how does one discover the need for a new camshaft, e.g. how is the engine performance impacted?
Well, the camshaft is a wear item, just like many of the parts in the car. Unfortunately, in these cars, it sees severe duty. The camshaft is case hardened steel, and once the hardness area and thickness is worn through, things go to hell in a hurry. A good indicator of this is when the 45 degree chamfer on each lobe is worn away, meaning the lobe is wearing down into the non-hardened material. If that metal deterioration continues far enough, corresponding valves won't open in "time" or far enough causing combustion issues in that cylinder.

Another issue is lifter failure (cracks, holes, etc. All of these issues are oil quality related and maybe even poor engineering design. There are countless threads on this site explaining the problems and plenty of damage photos.

All of the above is just another issue to worry about with certain TDI models and all are well documented here.
 

thundershorts

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Tony, I think you'll find the hardening is induction, not case hardened. It is probably rare to find anything but a custom cam that is case hardened. thats why the hardened layer is so thin on oem cams, cranks, etc
 

aja8888

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Tony, I think you'll find the hardening is induction, not case hardened. It is probably rare to find anything but a custom cam that is case hardened. thats why the hardened layer is so thin on oem cams, cranks, etc
Yea, I must have been in a fog when I mentioned that. I was referring to the case effect that induction hardening provides through the process (Martensite) and not the old technique of case hardening gun barrels, etc..
 

turbocharged798

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And it's a fact that no super special oil can cover up a huge design problem. I have numerous customers from TDI club that use nothing but the 505.01 oil, mann filters, use frost heaters, etc, etc, and still have a munched cam at 100-120K. I had a mk5 come in here not long ago that's been run on 15-40 rotella dino oil it's whole life (old farmer) and at 200K his cam looked like the usual ones I see running VW spec oil at 120K.
Doesn't that kinda prove that 505.01 is complete and udder bullcrap?


155K on my 04 BEW, OE cam still looks like brand new. Gets T6 every 10K miles.

Also, the cam type seems to have a huge effect. There seems to be 3X amount of BRM cam failures to BEW cam failures on here I would say. BHWs are not popular enough to gauge properly.
 

Franko6

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Matt,

Thanks for the 'thumbs up' on our cams. We made our own design and we find that there is an additional power and, if the torsion is properly set ( see http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=336279&highlight=torsion) fuel economy improvement. Our main goal with our cam design is economy and durability.

We regularly have reports of fuel economy improvements. Several cars have seen 52mpg. As a general rule, everybody feels the improved response and most are achieving 'best fuel economy' numbers.

As for the cam bearings, there is a misconception for the purpose of the cam bearing design modification that we make. The thought is that the cam bearings would improve the cam bearing life. To a minor degree, that is possible. But the big problems is that the lower bearings, which have all the force, are poorly designed. The cam follower bores undercut the bearings and remove a great deal of support. That is the reason for the excessive lower bearing wear.

The reason for the oiling modification that we have designed is to allow additional oiling for the cam followers. By moving the oiling path to the top bearing shell, there is double the amount of oil that comes out of the 'loose' top bearing. That oil is slung by the cam lobes directly onto the cam followers. That extra oil is exactly what the cam followers need to carry away heat. It is my contention that one of the main reasons for the cam/ cam follower wear is that the lifters become so hot that they become pneumatic instead of hydraulic. The oil is boiling inside of the lifters, causing the lifters to constantly push hard against the cam lobes. That is the reason you'll see galling in the base circle of the cam when it should be virtually zero pressure. Our cam bearing design brings additional oil to the cam followers.

Turbocharged,

We like the improved 505.01 oil. Better oil is better...every time. We are recommending the 505.01 oils for all TDI's that have turbos. We do have our preferred brands, and have seen some oils that qualify or have been promoted as qualifying that we feel should NOT be run in the PD's.

We agree that there has been an issue with cam type. When we initially were consulted which cam design we felt was 'best', we said the BEW. The injector lobe for the BRM is .010" taller, with a more radical mechanical pilot pop. The rest of the cam design between every single PD motor's intake and exhaust lobes are IDENTICAL. We changed the design to eliminate the very flat profile of the valve lobes, which 'slap' the cam followers open.

To summarize, the design issues are: poorly supported bearings, incorrect galley oiling location and a solid lifter profile for the valve lobes. We are still working on a cam bearing design to improve the support of the bearing, however, that is comparatively the least of the issues.

There are two major reasons that cams last: Lots of highway miles. Few days that the ambient temperature is above 90 degrees.
 
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tikal

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Matt,

Thanks for the 'thumbs up' on our cams. We made our own design and we find that there is an additional power and, if the torsion is properly set ( see http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=336279&highlight=torsion) fuel economy improvement. Our main goal with our cam design is economy and durability.

We regularly have reports of fuel economy improvements. Several cars have seen 52mpg. As a general rule, everybody feels the improved response and most are achieving 'best fuel economy' numbers.
52 MPG in a non-B5 car, right?

If somebody is achieving consistently above 40 MPG in his/her automatic B5, I would like to know how it is possible (even using a stage II re-profiled cam)!
 

Zambee500

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If you follow the link Frank posted, his example is there. It is a thread in the MKIV forums, and he mentions a manual transmission on that particular car that got 52 mpg.

I'd be interested to know whether Frank considers M1 TDT and Rotella T6 as acceptable exceptions to the 505.01 req't and he will still honor the warranty on customers running those oils. When he and I spoke before I purchased his Stage 2 cam, he indicated they were both in the "better oil is better...every time" category and so that's what I'm running. I sure hope he would not have led me to voiding my warranty with him. And I don't think he did or would, but a little confirmation here would be nice since the question was raised in the other thread.
 
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