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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old September 12th, 2017, 09:56   #3121
VeeDubTDI
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Tesla updated their Supercharger location map this week with their planned sites for 2018. The network is growing rapidly, and most of the additions in 2018 will be new Supercharger stations in and around major urban areas. http://www.tesla.com/findus

Additionally, Tesla has announced a new type of Supercharger for these urban installations. The new unit is significantly smaller in size and provides 72 kW of dedicated power to the vehicle that is plugged into it. That is compared to the existing highway Superchargers that split power their between two stations. https://electrek.co/2017/09/11/first...arger-station/

I'm going to use pkhoury as an example for the expanding Supercharger network, since in the past, he has expressed interest in Supercharger locations around him. There are currently 7 active Supercharger sites within 200 miles of his location:
  • Junction, TX: 81 miles
  • San Marcos, TX: 98 miles
  • Three Rivers, TX: 136 miles
  • Flatonia, TX: 151 miles
  • Ozona, TX: 171 miles
  • Columbus, TX: 185 miles
  • Victoria, TX: 185 miles

Coming in 2017 and 2018:
  • Fredericksburg, TX: 51 miles
  • Walden Meadows, San Antonio, TX: 52 miles
  • Downtown San Antonio, TX: 68 miles
  • Dilley, TX: 98 miles
  • Austin, TX: 133 miles
  • Cedar Park, TX: 153 miles
  • San Angelo, TX: 177 miles
  • Laredo, TX: 182 miles

By the end of 2018, it should be possible to travel nearly all of the continental US via the Supercharger network. Tesla also plans to build out the entire Trans Canada Highway in 2018, enabling travel from Vancouver to Nova Scotia.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 10:10   #3122
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Originally Posted by Oilerlord View Post
Perhaps you should. Compared to an EV, it probably isn't as cheap to run as you may think it is.
If we rounded up the EPA average on your car 40 MPG combined, that's 6,250 gallons of diesel. Even at 2 bucks per gallon; that's $12,500 in fuel alone not counting oil changes, filters, timing belts, etc.
I went though all my old bills on my Audi A4 before I sold it. My fuel and engine-related maintenance brought my operating costs to about $25K over the 110,000 miles I drove it.
FYI, I have an eGolf, as well and a 5kW solar system.

Just using your numbers above, however, the cost of my 20 year old car would be slightly higher than $17,500. The $12,500 figure is not accurate since I get 50mpg+ but $2 dollars per gallon is low relative to average costs in California so we'll go with that. Timing belts add another $1500 and oil changes @30 dollars x 25 is an additional $750. I hardly think timing belts and oil changes are worth mentioning as I've pointed out here and other threads. For a group of gear heads the time and/or expense is among the weakest reasons to justify the expense of an EV. Case in point, the EVSE wipes out any savings by itself.

In any case, all of that brings us up to a grand total of less than $20K. My eGolf was $30K. Even with the federal incentive I still paid more and that's without calculating the cost of electricity (.12/kwh flat, we don't have tiers where I live and I believe my solar is calculated at .10/kwh).

Incidentally, I think a far more accurate number to estimate my "savings" is to compare my eGolf to a non-eGolf. I've driven a grand total of 12K miles in my eGolf since the lease began. Compare that at my utility rates and you'll find I "saved" about $500 dollars in fuel costs over the life of my eGolf but after the expense of paying about $10K more than a comparable fuel Golf.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 10:21   #3123
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I'm surprised Austin doesn't already have a supercharger station. I see quite a few Tesla's when I'm down there. There are lots of other EV chargers though, so maybe it wasn't made a top priority. For instance, all of the HEB grocery stores in Austin (at least the ones I've been to) seem to have EV chargers in the parking lots.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 10:40   #3124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
I'm surprised Austin doesn't already have a supercharger station. I see quite a few Tesla's when I'm down there. There are lots of other EV chargers though, so maybe it wasn't made a top priority. For instance, all of the HEB grocery stores in Austin (at least the ones I've been to) seem to have EV chargers in the parking lots.
If it's not there already it's on the 2017 map.

Keep in mind, though, that superchargers aren't intended to serve local travel so they're supposed to be spaced out and not necessarily in the middle of a major metro like you'd otherwise expect based on a slower charging network infrastructure.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 10:50   #3125
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Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
If it's not there already it's on the 2017 map.
Keep in mind, though, that superchargers aren't intended to serve local travel so they're supposed to be spaced out and not necessarily in the middle of a major metro like you'd otherwise expect based on a slower charging network infrastructure.
As I just posted, that philosophy is changing and Tesla is planning to rapidly expand into urban areas so that they can serve people who don't have the capacity to charge their cars at home.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 10:53   #3126
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Originally Posted by VeeDubTDI View Post
As I just posted, that philosophy is changing and Tesla is planning to rapidly expand into urban areas so that they can serve people who don't have the capacity to charge their cars at home.
I don't agree that their philosophy is changing. It's not that Tesla has changed its opinions about how to use the traditional supercharger network, but rather that they are building out a different network. My response was to someone pointing out he was surprised there wasn't a traditional supercharger in Austin and wasn't a general commentary on how Tesla thinks about charging in general now or something that would be relevant to long-term goals of theirs.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 11:11   #3127
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Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
I don't agree that their philosophy is changing. It's not that Tesla has changed its opinions about how to use the traditional supercharger network, but rather that they are building out a different network. My response was to someone pointing out he was surprised there wasn't a traditional supercharger in Austin and wasn't a general commentary on how Tesla thinks about charging in general now or something that would be relevant to long-term goals of theirs.
It's the same network, with slightly different hardware.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 11:13   #3128
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I understand what it is and that doesn't have any bearing on what we're talking about regardless.

The point is that a new rollout is for the upcoming Model3s and doesn't really have anything to do with their traditional supercharger network and, more to the point, the reason there is no traditional supercharger in Austin is because those traditional superchargers are not intended for short commute patterns.

I'm not sure why you are banging on this drum since Tesla introducing a lower charging capacity network is a non-sequitur to my answer to him.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 11:16   #3129
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Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
I understand what it is and that doesn't have any bearing on what we're talking about regardless.

The point is that a new rollout is for the upcoming Model3s and doesn't really have anything to do with their traditional supercharger network and, more to the point, the reason there is no traditional supercharger in Austin is because those traditional superchargers are not intended for short commute patterns.

I'm not sure why you are banging on this drum since Tesla introducing a lower charging capacity network is a non-sequitur to my answer to him.
OK bizzle, I'm sorry I upset you. You're right that there was no Supercharger in downtown Austin because the network was originally designed to enable highway travel. I never disputed that, but I'll swap my drum out for a fiddle. As I said, that is changing and urban areas will be getting Superchargers in the next year.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 11:17   #3130
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I was never upset, just confused why my answer to the guy was turning into an argument and the point was getting lost in the weeds.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 11:18   #3131
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Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
I was never upset, just confused why my answer to the guy was turning into an argument.
Not an argument - an observation about what's to come. My apologies for quoting your post.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 11:22   #3132
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I think the issue is that since Musk has opted to call these new chargers part of the "Supercharging" network he's muddying the waters and implying, as you put it, a change in philosophy that doesn't actually exist. He should have called the lower cap chargers the "Charging" network or whatever because as is drivers are likely to revert back to the behavior Musk has been actively trying to discourage where Tesla owners are using the high capacity superchargers for daily, short term commutes.

The comments at the bottom of the page you linked about the new network already hint at some of the issues where drivers are asking how they're going to be able to differentiate between these and "normal" superchargers since presumably these are going to be accompanied by steep parking costs.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 11:24   #3133
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You're both correct in a way... Superchargers are not intended to be used for local charging AND Tesla is starting to provide SCs intended specifically for local use.

Not sure how this one will play out... IMO L3 charging isn't sustainable at scale. A L3 charger costs >20x more than L2. Using a Supercharger for daily charging is a band-aid not a solution. I'm afraid Tesla might make things worse by enabling people. I know I'd be A LOT more motivated to push for L2 charging where I work, shop or live if I was having trouble keeping my car charged.

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I think the issue is that since Musk has opted to call these new chargers part of the "Supercharging" network he's muddying the waters and implying, as you put it, a change in philosophy that doesn't actually exist.
The philosophy has changed in response to driver behavior. Superchargers were supposed to be 'free forever'. Elon stated that several times... sadly irrational behavior has forced Tesla to re-examine this policy. If someone buying a ~$100k car was willing to sit on a Supercharger to save ~$10/hr the problem would be FAR worse with a $35k car. The 'mini-Supercharger' is a compromise between Destination chargers and Superchargers. Tesla would still prefer that people charge at home but they recognized that they needed a temporary solution for people that still don't have that option... hopefully it will be 'Temporary' :/

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Old September 12th, 2017, 11:30   #3134
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More workplace L2 charging would be amazing, especially if paired with solar power canopies to reduce peak demand.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 12:08   #3135
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More workplace L2 charging would be amazing, especially if paired with solar power canopies to reduce peak demand.
Talk to your employers... commercial rates are quite often less than residential rates in most areas, so you'd be saving money charging at work even if you had to pay their costs. Plus they gain the 'look how green we are' credits for having charging at their place.

We've got 25 40A chargers at my work. The company had zero problems putting them in, even without the demand for them there right now.
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